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Hornby A2/2 and A2/3 (2020 Range)


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2 hours ago, micklner said:

No rimmed chimney on the Wolf ? (from memory I havent checked)

I think as well that the  handrails wrap around the smoke box and there's a pronounced kink in the steam pipe in many photos.

Edited by davidw
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With comments about the efficacy of Thompson's engines, I read in memories of Bill Wright a fireman at I think Annesley that he put the O1 at the top for steaming, among all the many engines he fired.  Better by miles than Stanier 8Fs , which were brought in to replace O1s c1962.  There may be some subjectivity in there.. :)

 

(this is from memory, my facts may be wrong they often are) 

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Right, a couple of clarifications needed. Late 50s/early 60s southern ECML.

1)  My 2x  A2/3 chosen could be 60513 Dante, and 60500 Edward Thompson. Would 60523 from Hornby be ripe for renumbering yo either of these, or need any mods.

2) The more difficult one, A2/2. I only ever saw 60502 Earl Marischal, & 60504 Mons Meg. I've yet to browse my spotting books for a definite answer, but think 60504 is the number 1 choice - the impossible choice? What really would be the changes needed? I think it needs the V-cab, possibly a change of dome & chimney. anything else? Or, choose 60502 - is this more or less the Hornby version?

 

Stewart

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30 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Right, a couple of clarifications needed. Late 50s/early 60s southern ECML.

1)  My 2x  A2/3 chosen could be 60513 Dante, and 60500 Edward Thompson. Would 60523 from Hornby be ripe for renumbering yo either of these, or need any mods.

2) The more difficult one, A2/2. I only ever saw 60502 Earl Marischal, & 60504 Mons Meg. I've yet to browse my spotting books for a definite answer, but think 60504 is the number 1 choice - the impossible choice? What really would be the changes needed? I think it needs the V-cab, possibly a change of dome & chimney. anything else? Or, choose 60502 - is this more or less the Hornby version?

 

Stewart

1. Yes but, 60523 for 60500 very late in life as there was a boiler change. Also Dante may have had a round dome.  It's amine field check with photos.

2. 60502 from 60501 possible. Check chimney style. 60503 are non starters with the proposed tooling. I believe Graeme Kings parts a Bachmann A2 and A3 boiler has been used to create 60503. 

 

Hope that helps

Edited by davidw
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6 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

I made up my mind and pre ordered No. 500 Edward Thompson in Apple Green from Rails of Sheffield. I prefer the LNER Livery over the BR livery, my only reason for running one in BR would be so I could run it on the club's layout at exhibitions/shows, which is only a few times a year. At home I can run whatever I want so I went for the better looking livery. 

That seems reasonable to me. An additional factor is that Hornby’s LNER green is usually good whereas Hornby’s BR green is variable. On my Lord Nelson class, it’s rather horrible.

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On 11/01/2020 at 20:49, AlexHolt said:

Originally I was going to pre order 60505 Thane of Fife, but now I think I'll be ordering an A2/3 instead, most likely 500 Edward Thompson. With my layout being more of a preserved/running whatever I want I feel like the LNER livery would fit in more, I also think another Thompson Pacific in BR livery would be a bit boring as I already have an A2/1 in BR early crest. 

 

I'm kind of interested to know which of the models people are most interested in or likely to buy. 

 

As you ask, I’ve taken a look. It’ll be one or other of the LNER green A2/3s. Just possibly both if I weaken. I might pass on the A2/2s until Hornby decides to knock out an LNER green one. I like to have locos in their original liveries if possible. To be sarcastic, If Hornby were to ask Bachmann nicely to paint Thane of Fife, I might go for that too. Of course, everything depends on finance. Hornby seems to like to get stuff out before Christmas, which is a very bad time financially. To be kinder to Hornby, I was recently showing off 4494 Osprey, the A4 in gloss LNER green. The finish is stunning.

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On 11/01/2020 at 20:49, AlexHolt said:

 

I'm kind of interested to know which of the models people are most interested in or likely to buy. 

 

I have pre ordered Edward Thompson and Thane of Fife and dependant on my financial position when they arrive they may well be joined by a Sun Castle.

Thane of Fife may or may not be renamed as Wolf of Badenoch

 

Rhys

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If Hornby had produced the pre 1951/52 version of the A2/2 in LNER green, or LNER green with British Railways lettering and numbering. I would have snapped one up on pre order. I'm still pondering whether a conversion of LNER green A2/3 Edward Thompson into an LNER green A2/2  is a viable option. More of a thought exercise, the cladding would be correct for the dia 106a boiler but the S curve would need to be corrected over the firebox and a replacement V fronted cab fitted. Replacement of the deflectors and sand box fillers would be necessary. The tender would require the rivets filing off, or the tender tank replacing. After repainting and lining, the tender would only be suitable for three out of the six engines. It could be quite an interesting modelling project. A bit of Human ingenuity can always get around the limitations of  the RTR manufactures.

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5 minutes ago, WD0-6-0 said:

I have pre ordered Edward Thompson and Thane of Fife and dependant on my financial position when they arrive they may well be joined by a Sun Castle.

Thane of Fife may or may not be renamed as Wolf of Badenoch

 

Rhys

 

Good morning Rhys,

 

60506 never carried the boiler dome arrangement represented on 60505, the dome cover is too far forwards. Also look to the sand box fillers, they are almost all different in each member of the class. 60505 has the two left hand side fillers encompassed by a single protective plate while 60506 has individual plates for each filler.

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1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Rhys,

 

60506 never carried the boiler dome arrangement represented on 60505, the dome cover is too far forwards. Also look to the sand box fillers, they are almost all different in each member of the class. 60505 has the two left hand side fillers encompassed by a single protective plate while 60506 has individual plates for each filler.

 

Thanks I'd forgotten those details

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2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Rhys,

 

60506 never carried the boiler dome arrangement represented on 60505, the dome cover is too far forwards. Also look to the sand box fillers, they are almost all different in each member of the class. 60505 has the two left hand side fillers encompassed by a single protective plate while 60506 has individual plates for each filler.

Hi Headstock

Thanks for that, if the changes are worth it I'm not against a little hacking though repainting after changing the dome is perhaps a little nerve racking. 

I'll make my mind up when it arrives, I'd like 6 but if it's too much work I'll be equally happy keeping 5

Thanks

Rhys

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29 minutes ago, WD0-6-0 said:

Hi Headstock

Thanks for that, if the changes are worth it I'm not against a little hacking though repainting after changing the dome is perhaps a little nerve racking. 

I'll make my mind up when it arrives, I'd like 6 but if it's too much work I'll be equally happy keeping 5

Thanks

Rhys

 

Rhys,

 

If you combine the tender frames, locomotive body and chassis from 60501, with the tender tank (top) of 60505, that should give you 60506. Hornby have probably already thought of this and could release the Wolf in the future, if that is the case, 60505 may be a good choice. I haven't checked the sand box filler arrangement on 60501 to see if it matches 60506 but it wouldn't be too difficult to change. One tiny thing to note is that the vacuum ejector pipe on the A2/2s varied quite a bit, that on 60501 being particularly distinctive, at least at some times in its career. Again, not a difficult one to replace, unless its moulded on to the body.

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Rhys,

 

60506 never carried the boiler dome arrangement represented on 60505, the dome cover is too far forwards. Also look to the sand box fillers, they are almost all different in each member of the class. 60505 has the two left hand side fillers encompassed by a single protective plate while 60506 has individual plates for each filler.

Didn't 60505 have the same Diagram 118 boiler (and so dome position) as 60506 till 60505 received the Diagram 117 boiler (1957 according to RCTS 2A).

I cant be sure from the Hornby photos but their version of 60505 may well carry that 118 boiler and dome position mighten it ?  That would make sense from a tooling point of view as the more common combination for the locos that had the 106A boilers replaced. Is there another difference I haven't noticed yet ?

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3 hours ago, Headstock said:

If Hornby had produced the pre 1951/52 version of the A2/2 in LNER green, or LNER green with British Railways lettering and numbering. I would have snapped one up on pre order. I'm still pondering whether a conversion of LNER green A2/3 Edward Thompson into an LNER green A2/2  is a viable option. More of a thought exercise, the cladding would be correct for the dia 106a boiler but the S curve would need to be corrected over the firebox and a replacement V fronted cab fitted. Replacement of the deflectors and sand box fillers would be necessary. The tender would require the rivets filing off, or the tender tank replacing. After repainting and lining, the tender would only be suitable for three out of the six engines. It could be quite an interesting modelling project. A bit of Human ingenuity can always get around the limitations of  the RTR manufactures.

I too would have loved to pre-order that LNER combination and have been wondering if there were a way to cobble one together.

In case helpful for your thought exercise, I remember Graeme King showing a photo of a Hornby A3 boiler and running plate superimposed onto an A2/2 drawing with the 106A boiler.  The S curve of the running plate and boiler band position and coning and height looked extremely close. So that may be another way to get there, but with more work at the front end of course. I had been planning to go that way with Graeme's other conversion parts and the Bachmann A2 chassis before the Hornby announcement.  

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58 minutes ago, Dominion said:

Didn't 60505 have the same Diagram 118 boiler (and so dome position) as 60506 till 60505 received the Diagram 117 boiler (1957 according to RCTS 2A).

I cant be sure from the Hornby photos but their version of 60505 may well carry that 118 boiler and dome position mighten it ?  That would make sense from a tooling point of view as the more common combination for the locos that had the 106A boilers replaced. Is there another difference I haven't noticed yet ?

 

Afternoon  Dominion,

 

Hornby are using the era 5 designation (is that post 57?) and a post 1957 photograph for 60505, so I would assume that the dia 117 boiler is what they are intending based on your  RCTS information. However, you could be right, nothing is set in stone.

 

41 minutes ago, Dominion said:

I too would have loved to pre-order that LNER combination and have been wondering if there were a way to cobble one together.

In case helpful for your thought exercise, I remember Graeme King showing a photo of a Hornby A3 boiler and running plate superimposed onto an A2/2 drawing with the 106A boiler.  The S curve of the running plate and boiler band position and coning and height looked extremely close. So that may be another way to get there, but with more work at the front end of course. I had been planning to go that way with Graeme's other conversion parts and the Bachmann A2 chassis before the Hornby announcement.  

 

I know a lot of collectors who would have gone for an LNER 60501 to go with their Hornby P2 models. I'm informed on another thread, by the great and the good of railway modelling, that we should be grateful for what we are given by the RTR manufactures. That's fine, but not everybody can contemplate producing the kind of modification that you or I have considered.

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40 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon  Dominion,

 

Hornby are using the era 5 designation (is that post 57?) and a post 1957 photograph for 60505, so I would assume that the dia 117 boiler is what they are intending based on your  RCTS information. However, you could be right, nothing is set in stone.

 

 

I know a lot of collectors who would have gone for an LNER 60501 to go with their Hornby P2 models. I'm informed on another thread, by the great and the good of railway modelling, that we should be grateful for what we are given by the RTR manufactures. That's fine, but not everybody can contemplate producing the kind of modification that you or I have considered.

Contemplating it is one thing, whether I have the nerve to cut one up is another ! When I did that for the A2/1 and started the A2/3 in progress the donors were much cheaper.

You are correct about the photo Hornby are using, definitely with the 117 boiler. The boiler change is stated as being in September 57. Was that around when the BR emblem would have changed as well ? If so then you are correct that the 60505 model is likely with a 117 boiler.

 

I had not appreciated that before and it implies that Hornby are tooling 5 different boiler, cab front and dome combinations for the 6 A2/3 and A2/2 models announced; 117 early boiler band position, 117 regular band position, and 118, all flat cab, and 118 and 117 (with streamlined dome cover), both with cut back V cabs. 

 

That is great if so but if doing so many I can still hope their plans will include the option for the 106a to cater for the LNER or Apple Green A2/2s and 60503/4.

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15 hours ago, No Decorum said:

As you ask, I’ve taken a look. It’ll be one or other of the LNER green A2/3s. Just possibly both if I weaken. I might pass on the A2/2s until Hornby decides to knock out an LNER green one. I like to have locos in their original liveries if possible. To be sarcastic, If Hornby were to ask Bachmann nicely to paint Thane of Fife, I might go for that too. Of course, everything depends on finance. Hornby seems to like to get stuff out before Christmas, which is a very bad time financially. To be kinder to Hornby, I was recently showing off 4494 Osprey, the A4 in gloss LNER green. The finish is stunning.

 

Dominion,

 

the tooling for the A2/3 is most comprehensive and very impressive, it would seem to cover most if not all variations. Reading between the lines of conversations by those more in the know, the A2/2 was perhaps more of an after thought. Thus, the more limited tooling and variants  based on what was developed for the A2/3.

 

48 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Depending on the tooling design, perhaps Hornby will be producing more variants at a later date. They can only do so much at a time:)

 

I think that is true, 60506 would be a relatively simple addition. However, the original LNER A2/2 would apparently be a very expensive production due to the new tooling required. Fascinating locomotives, because of the variations in such a small class.

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On 08/01/2020 at 12:46, Denbridge said:

Rubbish. A Swindon boiler Was the most efficient design produced prior to ww2. So much so, that designers across the country aimed to emulate Churchwards design. Yes it was more expensive initially but that was repaid by longer steaming hours between works attention. Swindon boilers using Welsh coal burned less coal and used less water to perform the same work as a Gresley, Stanier or Maunsell boiler. All proven at the time. This isn't to say those boilers were in any way inferior. They were designed to do the required work on their own railways. Remember NO designer would want to include a rear truck if it wasn't necessary.  Pacifics, like Atlantic's before them were born out of the necessity of requiring a wide firebox  to burn the fuel available to them. Even Gresley, following the Castle/A1 trials stated that the Churchward/Collett 4.6.0 represented the ideal in terms of motive power and went on to use many of Churchwards principles. 

"many of Churchward's principles", I'm afraid not. Gresley lifted Churchward's superior valve events to greatly improve his engines. The A1 motion failed to take maximum advantage of the expansive use of the steam and ensure good exhaust clearance. Gresley, apparently, gleaned this from an examination of the Great Way Round engine whilst it was on the LNER. I may be wrong, but from memory I believe most of the improvement was made by lengthening one of the motion rods, prior to a more extensive revision of the motion. All the changes cost peanuts. (The A4 boiler was superb; wide, and not excessive  firebox, high pressure, combustion chamber, relatively short tubes, high superheat and owed nothing to Churchward).

 

The main advantage of Gresley,s engines, over those of Great Way Round, was the vastly superior boiler with a high degree of superheat, the advantages of which Gresley fully appreciated, and the smothooness,  length and directness of the steam circuit. Gresley learned nothing from Great Way Round boilers which was of any use, other than to avoid them. As for other railways use of the ridiculously expensive Belpair boiler, take a look at how the class 5 engines performed during the 48 trials, you're in for a surprise.

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If you mean in BR livery (so with the 118 boiler and truncated V shaped cab front) then one set of differences to look out for is the tender type and back of cab.

60501 and 60502 had the "new type" non corridor tender with beading along the top of the side sheets and a small curve inwards at the front end matching a similar curve on the back edge of the cab side sheeting.

While 60505 and 60506 had the streamlined non corridor tender with not beading and straight side sheets matching straight side sheets at the back of the cab.

So that would suggest 60501 woudl be a better match if you wants 60502. It should have the right boiler and dome position for you too. I don't know about the chimney or details along the top of the running plates.

It would also seem that the Hornby model of 60505 may have the 117 type boiler with dome position further forward which was unique, so another reason you might pick 60501 as your starter. Tom

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Thanks for the insight. I suppose I could wait to see if they decide to produce 60502 later on but it's always so tempting to modify and kitbash as I'm kind of impatient. Hornby are certainly going to get a fair bit of money out of me with these latest offerings. 10000, an A2/2 and potentially Edward Thompson in the lined green are all on my radar.

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On 14/01/2020 at 05:22, Londoner said:

"many of Churchward's principles", I'm afraid not. Gresley lifted Churchward's superior valve events to greatly improve his engines. The A1 motion failed to take maximum advantage of the expansive use of the steam and ensure good exhaust clearance. Gresley, apparently, gleaned this from an examination of the Great Way Round engine whilst it was on the LNER. I may be wrong, but from memory I believe most of the improvement was made by lengthening one of the motion rods, prior to a more extensive revision of the motion. All the changes cost peanuts. (The A4 boiler was superb; wide, and not excessive  firebox, high pressure, combustion chamber, relatively short tubes, high superheat and owed nothing to Churchward).

 

The main advantage of Gresley,s engines, over those of Great Way Round, was the vastly superior boiler with a high degree of superheat, the advantages of which Gresley fully appreciated, and the smothooness,  length and directness of the steam circuit. Gresley learned nothing from Great Way Round boilers which was of any use, other than to avoid them. As for other railways use of the ridiculously expensive Belpair boiler, take a look at how the class 5 engines performed during the 48 trials, you're in for a surprise.

 

Well said, and Thompson avoided the Belpaire too...  and an ex-firemen from Annesley I know via Facebook says the O1 was far better to fire than an 8F  no bias there! :)

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