hornby 2020 Hornby A2/2 and A2/3 (2020 Range)

[Steam here!]

I never thought about that, Hornby's other LNER Pacific's, when you put it like that it does make sense.

I think I'll leave it for the time being, regarding the front nem bogie.

Come to think of it all of the other express locos I have I never used the front nem pocket.

[No Decorum]

The Thompson 6' 2" Pacifics were designed as heavy mixed traffic locomotives. Their primary purpose was to haul heavy, fast goods trains, although like the V2s, they would be used on passenger trains*. However, there was a shortage of new locomotives after the war and the Thompsons, being relatively new, found themselves frequently pressed into use as express passenger locomotives.

 

Flanged trailing wheels aren’t provided because they wouldn’t fit; I have tried. Like the Merchant Navies, the solid metal chassis has been designed so that there is no room for flanges. There is really no need for Hornby to do that. Providing enough room to fit flanged wheels can be done without departing from the fixed frames which Hornby uses. It is a disappointing move backwards.

 

As for the lack of a front NEM pocket, I can quite see that some people would like to be able to run in reverse or double head but my personal view is it improves the appearance of the front considerably. Hornby should provide a full dummy coupling instead of just a hook. The A2/2 was provided with a bang plate but there isn’t anything to bang on it!

 

*One of the six Kylchap V2s was kept as standing pilot at Peterborough because the turntable couldn’t accommodate anything longer. They were there to substitute for a failed Deltic, no less.

[Tony Wright]

Out of possible interest........................

 

 

By detailing/renumbering/renaming, I've changed Hornby's A2/2 60501 into 60502.

 

Geoff Haynes weathered it.

 

A full account of how I made the changes (and those to an A2/3) will be appearing in the next issue of BRM. 

[Tony Wright]

As alluded to in my last post, I've also altered the identity of a Hornby A2/3...................

 

 

Despite having taken thousands of model railway pictures, why don't I check that things like couplings are hanging correctly beforehand?! 

 

Despite some critical comments regarding these Hornby models of Thompson's Pacifics, I still think they're outstanding RTR examples of steam-outline motive power. Granted, this one has been varnished (by Geoff Haynes), which does bring out the colour more, but, in terms of performance I think they're unsurpassed.

 

I suppose cynics will say I would praise them, especially as I was consulted during their development. 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Headstock]

On 09/05/2021 at 09:20, Tony Wright said:

Out of possible interest........................

 

 

By detailing/renumbering/renaming, I've changed Hornby's A2/2 60501 into 60502.

 

Geoff Haynes weathered it.

 

A full account of how I made the changes (and those to an A2/3) will be appearing in the next issue of BRM. 

 

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

As alluded to in my last post, I've also altered the identity of a Hornby A2/3...................

 

 

Despite having taken thousands of model railway pictures, why don't I check that things like couplings are hanging correctly beforehand?! 

 

Despite some critical comments regarding these Hornby models of Thompson's Pacifics, I still think they're outstanding RTR examples of steam-outline motive power. Granted, this one has been varnished (by Geoff Haynes), which does bring out the colour more, but, in terms of performance I think they're unsurpassed.

 

I suppose cynics will say I would praise them, especially as I was consulted during their development. 

 

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

one thing missed in the consultation, is that Earl Marischal, both as a P2 and an A2/2, was the only locomotive out of the six, that never carried a streamline fairing to the forward tender bulkhead. It was identical in height and form to the 'new style tenders' fitted to class A3 and the rebuilt Great Northern.  The forward bulkhead on Earl Marischal was also significantly lower and with a flatter curve, than that fitted to the other five locomotives across two tender types. They all had their forward bulkheads cut down to match that of Earl Marischal in 1948. However, they retained the streamlined fairing in the new lowered position, as featured on Honeyway above. Honeyway also originally had the higher front bulkead as featured on the Hornby LNER mint green versions of the A2/3. Honeyway, like all the A2/3's, also had the tender fairing cut down in height in 1948.

 

The tender on the model is not correct for Earl Marischal, the locomotive had a unique tender amongst all of the variants of A2. Cock O' the North also carried a similar beaded 'new style tender' but differed in that it had the streamlined fairing. However, the high style provided on the Hornby model of Cock o' the North and featured on the model of Earl Marischal above, is only right prior to 1948 and only for Cock o' the North. After that date it should be like that on Honeyway on that particular locomotive.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Headstock
add full stop, clarify a point.

[31A]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

The tender on the model is not correct for Earl Marischal, the locomotive had a unique tender amongst all of the variants of A2. Cock 'O' the North also carried a similar beaded 'new style tender' but differed in that it had the streamlined fairing. However, the high style provided on the Hornby model of Cock 'O' the North and featured on the model of Earl Marischal above, is only right prior to 1948 and only for Cock 'O' the North. After that date it should be like that on Honeyway on that particular locomotive.

 

Since Hornby have themselves announced a forthcoming model of 'Earl Marischal', it will be interesting to see what tender comes with it.  Bearing in mind that pictures published so far are probably only computer generated 'catalogue images' rather than pictures of the actual model, this does show a tender with beading, but with the streamlined fairing at the front; however that may not be what is eventually produced:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-thompson-class-a22-4-6-2-60502-earl-marischal-era-5-r3977?

 

[Headstock]

27 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Since Hornby have themselves announced a forthcoming model of 'Earl Marischal', it will be interesting to see what tender comes with it.  Bearing in mind that pictures published so far are probably only computer generated 'catalogue images' rather than pictures of the actual model, this does show a tender with beading, but with the streamlined fairing at the front; however that may not be what is eventually produced:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-thompson-class-a22-4-6-2-60502-earl-marischal-era-5-r3977?

 

 

Good afternoon Steve,

 

the digital image looks to have a number of problems for 60502. Hornby could also correct the tender on 60501, or even better, produce the original boiler version of the locomotive with the V fronted cab. That would be right for the tender as supplied and produce more livery variants, not Hornby's strongest point I know, a bit costly for both options I suppose.

 

More importantly, I'm sure a modeler of TW's calibre could quite easily cut off the streamline fairing and file down the bulkhead on his model, it would make for quite an interesting article and be cheaper than a retool.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Headstock

[Tony Wright]

35 minutes ago, 31A said:

 

Since Hornby have themselves announced a forthcoming model of 'Earl Marischal', it will be interesting to see what tender comes with it.  Bearing in mind that pictures published so far are probably only computer generated 'catalogue images' rather than pictures of the actual model, this does show a tender with beading, but with the streamlined fairing at the front; however that may not be what is eventually produced:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-thompson-class-a22-4-6-2-60502-earl-marischal-era-5-r3977?

 

Thanks Steve,

 

The image of 60502 is just 60505 renumbered/renamed. It's thus wrong for EARL MARISCHAL in that it carries a Thompson Dia.117 boiler and continuous backing plate behind its sandbox fillers. I can't tell if the handrails are clipped or not to to the smokebox front. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

one thing missed in the consultation, is that Earl Marischal, both as a P2 and an A2/2, was the only locomotive out of the six, that never carried a streamline fairing to the forward tender bulkhead. It was identical in height and form to the 'new style tenders' fitted to class A3 and the rebuilt Great Northern.  The forward bulkhead on Earl Marischal was also significantly lower and with a flatter curve, than that fitted to the other five locomotives across two tender types. They all had their forward bulkheads cut down to match that of Earl Marischal in 1948. However, they retained the streamlined fairing in the new lowered position, as featured on Honeyway above. Honeyway also originally had the higher front bulkead as featured on the Hornby LNER mint green versions of the A2/3. Honeyway, like all the A2/3's, also had the tender fairing cut down in height in 1948.

 

The tender on the model is not correct for Earl Marischal, the locomotive had a unique tender amongst all of the variants of A2. Cock O' the North also carried a similar beaded 'new style tender' but differed in that it had the streamlined fairing. However, the high style provided on the Hornby model of Cock o' the North and featured on the model of Earl Marischal above, is only right prior to 1948 and only for Cock o' the North. After that date it should be like that on Honeyway on that particular locomotive.

 

 

Thanks Andrew,

 

A tender oversight on my part.

 

60501's tender was also different in being welded, rather than flush-riveted, but that's irrelevant on the model. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[robmcg]

8 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

A tender oversight on my part.

 

60501's tender was also different in being welded, rather than flush-riveted, but that's irrelevant on the model. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Was not 60502 the A2 timed by Cecil J Allen north of York with 10 total sustaining an average of over 90mph for 15 miles with a maximum of over 95mph,   on level ground?   Not bad for any engine.

 

I'm not sure of the train size nor the exact speeds, and forget the source, but it wouldn't surprise me given the steaming capacity and breathing of the engine. Possibly not too much trouble getting the coal forward in the grate...

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Was not 60502 the A2 timed by Cecil J Allen north of York with 10 total sustaining an average of over 90mph for 15 miles with a maximum of over 95mph,   on level ground?   Not bad for any engine.

 

I'm not sure of the train size nor the exact speeds, and forget the source, but it wouldn't surprise me given the steaming capacity and breathing of the engine. Possibly not too much trouble getting the coal forward in the grate...

I think it was Rob,

 

I think CJA thought the run 'astonishing', and the best he'd ever experienced with a 6' 2" loco. Which proved that the Thompson Pacifics could certainly 'go', but it was their poor riding which often dissuaded crews from really motoring.

 

The Thompson Pacifics will always remain controversial, I'm sure. As models, they run just the same as any others, and have to be included for any latter-day ECML steam depiction. I actually like them as models, but I'd have loved to have seen the likes of MONS MEG (or any of them) as a P2, rather than as an A2/2.

 

One of the last times I saw one was at Bawtry, in 1960. It was WOLF OF BADENOCH, filthy dirty, and slowly heading northwards after observing the restriction over the viaduct. On its express, the whole front end was shrouded in escaping steam (very common) as it plodded by, moments later hidden behind a gleaming GANNET on the Up 'Lizzie'.

 

Ah, what memories!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[No Decorum]

On 10/05/2021 at 09:51, Tony Wright said:

 

Despite having taken thousands of model railway pictures, why don't I check that things like couplings are hanging correctly beforehand?! 

 

It’s a comfort to know that I’m not alone. I pop the SD card into the PC attached to the tele and it becomes obvious; resulting in my stomping back up to the roof space, muttering. That’s a lovely job on Honeyway and the setting is beautiful too.

[Ray Flintoft]

17 hours ago, robmcg said:

 

Was not 60502 the A2 timed by Cecil J Allen north of York with 10 total sustaining an average of over 90mph for 15 miles with a maximum of over 95mph,   on level ground?   Not bad for any engine.

 

I'm not sure of the train size nor the exact speeds, and forget the source, but it wouldn't surprise me given the steaming capacity and breathing of the engine. Possibly not too much trouble getting the coal forward in the grate...

The log appears in CJA's "British Pacific Locomotives . The train was the Newcastle portion of what became the "West Riding" & was actually a Doncaster turn . It was only 6 coaches , gross weight 220 tons & on the Northbound run ran York pass to Darlington stop in 37 min 13 secs with a top speed of 84 m.p.h. On the return working the time was 36 min 25 secs with a max. of 95 m.p.h. & covered 20.95 miles at an average speed of 92.5 m.p.h.  Clearly not suffering from bad riding that day !

   In the same book there is a log of no. 60524 running York to Darlington start to stop in 36 min 29 secs with 11 coaches , 380 tons gross , with a max. of 90 m.p.h.  covering 41 miles at an average of 82.5 m.p.h. 

  These logs , I think , show that in good condition & in the right hands the Thompson pacifics were highly capable engines .

                         Ray . 

[Dominion]

On 10/05/2021 at 05:38, Headstock said:

 

 

Good morning Tony,

 

one thing missed in the consultation, is that Earl Marischal, both as a P2 and an A2/2, was the only locomotive out of the six, that never carried a streamline fairing to the forward tender bulkhead. It was identical in height and form to the 'new style tenders' fitted to class A3 and the rebuilt Great Northern.  The forward bulkhead on Earl Marischal was also significantly lower and with a flatter curve, than that fitted to the other five locomotives across two tender types. They all had their forward bulkheads cut down to match that of Earl Marischal in 1948. However, they retained the streamlined fairing in the new lowered position, as featured on Honeyway above. Honeyway also originally had the higher front bulkead as featured on the Hornby LNER mint green versions of the A2/3. Honeyway, like all the A2/3's, also had the tender fairing cut down in height in 1948.

 

The tender on the model is not correct for Earl Marischal, the locomotive had a unique tender amongst all of the variants of A2. Cock O' the North also carried a similar beaded 'new style tender' but differed in that it had the streamlined fairing. However, the high style provided on the Hornby model of Cock o' the North and featured on the model of Earl Marischal above, is only right prior to 1948 and only for Cock o' the North. After that date it should be like that on Honeyway on that particular locomotive.

 

 

 

When Cock o' the North was built it's tender had no fairing at the front. I have read that although it was welded construction its external appearance was the same as 2002's tender.  It had curved in side sheets to match the cab as well.  I have also read that the the tenders for 2001 and 2002 stayed with their locomotives throughout their lives, through the rebuilding and renumbering.   When do people think it acquired a fairing at the front ?

In this photo of 2001 as an A2/2  with V fronted cab, I can't be sure if there is a fairing or not. 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62532775@N03/26172515911

 

I swapped the tender on my Hornby model to one from an A3 to get the curved in side sheets and no fairing, as shown earlier in this thread, but now I am not so sure. 

Tom

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Dominion
Rephrased question

[Headstock]

5 hours ago, Dominion said:

 

When Cock o' the North was built it's tender had no fairing at the front. I have read that although it was welded construction its external appearance was the same as 2002's tender.  It had curved in side sheets to match the cab as well.  I have also read that the the tenders for 2001 and 2002 stayed with their locomotives throughout their lives, through the rebuilding and renumbering.   When do people think it acquired a fairing at the front ?

In this photo of 2001 as an A2/2  with V fronted cab, I can't be sure if there is a fairing or not. 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62532775@N03/26172515911

 

I swapped the tender on my Hornby model to one from an A3 to get the curved in side sheets and no fairing, as shown earlier in this thread, but now I am not so sure. 

Tom

 

 

Good evening Tom,

 

the green books says that the front bulkhead was raised in height on one of the two 'new style tenders' in 1938, presumably that fitted to Cock o' the North. As seen above, the cab sheet is obviously pretty straight between the roof and the tenders front bulkhead, this would confirm what the green book has to say. The green book goes on to say, the bulkhead was then cut down in height in 1948, along with those on the tenders fitted to 503/4/5 and 6. It doesn't make clear if a streamlined fairing was added at the same time the bulkhead height was raised. However, after the bulkhead was cut down in 48, 60501 did have a streamline fairing, identical to that on the other ex P2's (with the exception of 502) and the A2/3's after their bulkhead with original streamlined fairing was reduced in height.

 

As a result, there is the possibility that the tender supplied by Hornby for its Cock o' the North model and it's forthcoming Earl Marishcal (if the same tender moulding is used) are actually no more than complete fantasy. 

 

The picture below, ironically used by Hornby, shows the significantly lower cut down forward bulkhead, with streamlined fairing as it appeared from 1948 onwards on 60501. Also, 60502 with the plain fronted bulkhead, exactly as originally built.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Headstock
add space.

[Headstock]

6 hours ago, Dominion said:

 

When Cock o' the North was built it's tender had no fairing at the front. I have read that although it was welded construction its external appearance was the same as 2002's tender.  It had curved in side sheets to match the cab as well.  I have also read that the the tenders for 2001 and 2002 stayed with their locomotives throughout their lives, through the rebuilding and renumbering.   When do people think it acquired a fairing at the front ?

In this photo of 2001 as an A2/2  with V fronted cab, I can't be sure if there is a fairing or not. 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/62532775@N03/26172515911

 

I swapped the tender on my Hornby model to one from an A3 to get the curved in side sheets and no fairing, as shown earlier in this thread, but now I am not so sure. 

Tom

 

 

An update for you Tom,

 

I forgot that I have a set of prints of the ex works Bugatti front end P2's. I thought that these were of the last four locomotives but one is of Cock o' the North. I can confirm that when the loco was ex works with the Bugatti front end, the forward tender bulkhead was also raised in height to the match the cab roof, in order to facilitate the fitting of sheeting between the loco and tender. No streamlined fairing was fitted, a lot of models, some very expensive, have this wrong. The streamline fairing was fitted after the bulkhead was cut down in height in 1948.

 

What does this all mean for the Hornby tender? Basically, they have produced a new variant of LNER eight wheel tender that never existed in the real world.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Headstock

[Dominion]

Thanks Andrew. It’s nice to know the timing from your drawing. As the Hornby model has the replacement boiler, it makes it post late 1952. That means the New Type non-corridor Hornby A3 tender I substituted fixes the tender side sheet turn in omission from the Hornby version, but is incorrect in  both having no fairing, and still having a high front plate.
I could swap again for different A3 tender this time with a cut down front plate, and then try to find some material to simulate a cab sheet to hide the lack of fairing. 
I wonder what people have tried for cab sheet material  in 4mm scale. I will have a search.

Thanks Tom

[Headstock]

40 minutes ago, Dominion said:

Thanks Andrew. It’s nice to know the timing from your drawing. As the Hornby model has the replacement boiler, it makes it post late 1952. That means the New Type non-corridor Hornby A3 tender I substituted fixes the tender side sheet turn in omission from the Hornby version, but is incorrect in  both having no fairing, and still having a high front plate.
I could swap again for different A3 tender this time with a cut down front plate, and then try to find some material to simulate a cab sheet to hide the lack of fairing. 
I wonder what people have tried for cab sheet material  in 4mm scale. I will have a search.

Thanks Tom

 

Evening Tom,

 

I have purchased A2/3 Chamiwhatsit. It's a disgusting colour! I was going to rename it as 555 Mushy Peas or Mint source. It will get a repaint into LNER/BR green as E 522 with British Railways on the tender. The tender is correct with high bulkhead and streamlined fairing as built but when it came out of works in 1948, the bulkhead was cut down with the fairing reinstated. I have already sorted out the dimensions for the new lower  bulkhead curve, its just a case of marking it out and filing it down. If I'm careful I may be able to remove the fairing fettle it a bit and reuse it. If not, it shouldn't be to hard to make a new one out of plastic sheet, using the original as a template. I suspect that I may even Have a spare brass or cast whitemetal one in stock. You could use the proportions of the bulkhead shape and fairing from the model of Thane of Fife, as this is correct.

 

P.S. I forgot about the curved side sheets on 60501, what a mess!

[John Tomlinson]

I've been following this discussion with interest, although until Hornby run a batch of any of these with a better version of BR green I won't be one of their customers.

 

To be clear from the above, isn't the tender supplied with the Hornby P2 version of "Cock of the North", correct therefore for 60502 in BR days, so low bulkhead, no streamlined fairing. I've attched a picture of one, which I've resprayed into BR fantasy steam blue, which does show the top of the tender quite clearly.

 

 

 

John.

Edited May 15, 2021 by John Tomlinson

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

I've been following this discussion with interest, although until Hornby run a batch of any of these with a better version of BR green I won't be one of their customers.

 

To be clear from the above, isn't the tender supplied with the Hornby P2 version of "Cock of the North", correct therefore for 60502 in BR days, so low bulkhead, no streamlined fairing. I've attched a picture of one, which I've resprayed into BR fantasy steam blue, which does show the top of the tender quite clearly.

 

 

 

John.

 

Good afternoon John,

 

I have very much admired your blue P2, it looks very handsome and well executed. Three things spring to mind, the removal of the ACFI water feed apparatus is sort of logical for your imagined locomotive. However, the casing on the boiler should also be removed. Secondly, Naming the locomotive after a dramatic Scottish title or object of power would be most appropriate and in keeping with the other six locomotives. Finally, a slightly glossier but subtle finish, applied to both locomotives main livery paint work, would lift them above their plastic origins. Thank goodness you didn't paint the wing deflectors black.

 

You are correct as far as Earl Marischal's tender is concerned, for whatever reason, it remained unchanged throughout its existence.

[John Tomlinson]

37 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon John,

 

I have very much admired your blue P2, it looks very handsome and well executed. Three things spring to mind, the removal of the ACFI water feed apparatus is sort of logical for your imagined locomotive. However, the casing on the boiler should also be removed. Secondly, Naming the locomotive after a dramatic Scottish title or object of power would be most appropriate and in keeping with the other six locomotives. Finally, a slightly glossier but subtle finish, applied to both locomotives main livery paint work, would lift them above their plastic origins. Thank goodness you didn't paint the wing deflectors black.

 

You are correct as far as Earl Marischal's tender is concerned, for whatever reason, it remained unchanged throughout its existence.

Thank you Andrew, coming from you the comments are much appreciated.

 

Good to see you back posting after your "sabbatical"!

 

John.

[No Decorum]

On 15/05/2021 at 13:29, John Tomlinson said:

I've been following this discussion with interest, although until Hornby run a batch of any of these with a better version of BR green I won't be one of their customers.

 

To be clear from the above, isn't the tender supplied with the Hornby P2 version of "Cock of the North", correct therefore for 60502 in BR days, so low bulkhead, no streamlined fairing. I've attched a picture of one, which I've resprayed into BR fantasy steam blue, which does show the top of the tender quite clearly.

 

 

 

John.

Never mind the tender – the blue looks lovely!

[Steve-NevilleGrove]

Hi everyone, I'm a new member of RMWeb but have referred to the expert content for years!

 

Anyway, I have just completed weathering of 3 Hornby A2/2's and thought I would share some images with you on here.

 

If you'd like to see them running on the layout and synced with archive sound recorded by Peter Handford, click this link to my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcVfL87Ws2b4Tq0Q68_Ir1A

 

 

 

60505 Thane of Fife (Heavily Weathered):

 

 

60501 Cock O' The North (with polished / in use weathering):

 

60501 Cock O' The North (with polished / medium weathering):

 

 

[PJT]

5 minutes ago, Steve-NevilleGrove said:

60501 Cock O' The North (with polished / in use weathering):

 

Crikey.  Staggeringly good.

Hornby's model, your work on it and the photo.  Just beautiful!

 

Pete T.

 

[davidw]

7 minutes ago, Steve-NevilleGrove said:

Hi everyone, I'm a new member of RMWeb but have referred to the expert content for years!

 

Anyway, I have just completed weathering of 3 Hornby A2/2's and thought I would share some images with you on here.

 

If you'd like to see them running on the layout and synced with archive sound recorded by Peter Handford, click this link to my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcVfL87Ws2b4Tq0Q68_Ir1A

 

 

 

60505 Thane of Fife (Heavily Weathered):

 

 

60501 Cock O' The North (with polished / in use weathering):

 

60501 Cock O' The North (with polished / medium weathering):

 

 

I've seen some of your work on YouTube. Really like 60022 and 60011 thanks for posting…!