New Hornby Rocket

[MarkSG]

On 06/01/2020 at 14:09, MGR Hooper! said:

Crew comes in the set.

 

Both versions, or just the limited edition?

[MarkSG]

On 07/01/2020 at 17:15, Dungrange said:

 

I wasn't around in 1830 and even if I was, I'm not sure how accurately I'd remember the shade of yellow used on Rocket. :-)

 

I agree that I'd expect the colour of the locomotive to match the coaches and the image in the first post looks as though the locomotive is much more orange than the coaches.  However, Graham's photographs in the third post look to indicate a locomotive where the colour match between locomotive and coaches is quite good and definitely yellow.

 

Yellow and black was the colour already chosen by the L&M for their posh coaching stock. Competitors in the Rainhill trials were not expected to use any particular colour scheme on their locos. However, the Stephensons deliberately painted Rocket in yellow and black to match the coaches, as a PR move. Given that they were using their own paint, though, and not the company's, it's likely that it wasn't a perfect match and there would probably have been a visible difference between the shades of yellow on loco and coaches. Colour matching is something of a dark art at the best of times, and has been for a long time, it's only very recently that the science  of colour has made more precise matching possible. Even as recently as BR, there were probably at least fifty shades of grey (and blue).

 

The other problem with Rocket, of course, is that we have only a vague idea what shade of yellow it was. Contemporary documentation describes it as "canary yellow", but there's no guarantee that what was called canary yellow in 1830 is what we call canary yellow now. Almost all our current concepts of what Rocket looked like are based on the colours used on the replicas. And I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have been long before someone realised that yellow, of any shade, isn't a particularly good colour for a steam loco. Although yellow persisted as the coaching stock colour on the L&M, other locos which were built shortly after Rocket (such as Northumbrian) appear, from contemporary drawings, to have been painted green. It's quite likely that Rocket itself, and the other Rocket class locos, were also panted green in service, with yellow being used only for the trials.

[Hal Nail]

11 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

The other problem with Rocket, of course, is that we have only a vague idea what shade of yellow it was

Fortunately we never let a lack of knowledge get in the way of a good discussion

[Colin_McLeod]

Probably Network Rail Yellow

[Denbridge]

8 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Theres an idea for a limited edition run - the 'Rocket 150 Collection' ,  Special editions of the APT, Rocket, 46229 Duchess of Hamilton, 850 Lord Nelson (Malachite of course) 5051 Drysllyn (?) Castle and yet another excuse to rollout the Black 5 as No 5000 plus good old Evening Star

Plus Cheltenham Sir Nigel Gresley Flying Scotsman.........

[96701]

3 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Probably Network Rail Yellow

Nah, 1960s warning panel yellow.

[Denbridge]

25 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Yellow and black was the colour already chosen by the L&M for their posh coaching stock. Competitors in the Rainhill trials were not expected to use any particular colour scheme on their locos. However, the Stephensons deliberately painted Rocket in yellow and black to match the coaches, as a PR move. Given that they were using their own paint, though, and not the company's, it's likely that it wasn't a perfect match and there would probably have been a visible difference between the shades of yellow on loco and coaches. Colour matching is something of a dark art at the best of times, and has been for a long time, it's only very recently that the science  of colour has made more precise matching possible. Even as recently as BR, there were probably at least fifty shades of grey (and blue).

 

The other problem with Rocket, of course, is that we have only a vague idea what shade of yellow it was. Contemporary documentation describes it as "canary yellow", but there's no guarantee that what was called canary yellow in 1830 is what we call canary yellow now. Almost all our current concepts of what Rocket looked like are based on the colours used on the replicas. And I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't have been long before someone realised that yellow, of any shade, isn't a particularly good colour for a steam loco. Although yellow persisted as the coaching stock colour on the L&M, other locos which were built shortly after Rocket (such as Northumbrian) appear, from contemporary drawings, to have been painted green. It's quite likely that Rocket itself, and the other Rocket class locos, were also panted green in service, with yellow being used only for the trials.

Even if the same paint as used on coaches was applied to Rocket,  that shade would begin to darken as soon as the first fire was lit. Since no one knows exactly what colour was used, it's an academic exercise to question Hornbys choice of colours.

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

By and large, the new tooling looks better but the old water barrel looks waterproof whereas the new one looks leaky!

That would be the logical position for the DCC socket?

There's pictures of wires going between loco/tender and only chain between tender/coaches. And as the chassis is rather open underneath, the barrel looks large enough to just about squeeze a socket and chip in. 

[3rd Rail Exile]

8 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Even if the same paint as used on coaches was applied to Rocket,  that shade would begin to darken as soon as the first fire was lit. Since no one knows exactly what colour was used, it's an academic exercise to question Hornbys choice of colours.

I might be wrong, but I'm sure some of the colour queries regarding Rocket have been distinctly "tongue in cheek" as a response to some of the more ridiculous colour-related statements made in other discussions.

 

It's an "out of the ordinary" "must-have" model, so I'm having it! 

[Gibbo675]

12 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

Even if the same paint as used on coaches was applied to Rocket,  that shade would begin to darken as soon as the first fire was lit. Since no one knows exactly what colour was used, it's an academic exercise to question Hornbys choice of colours.

Hi Denbridge,

 

Paint was up until relatively recently was mixed by the painter immediately prior to application and was made from boiled linseed oil, white lead, pigments and thinned out with turpentine. All of these ingredients would be either weighed out or measured by volume proportionally and very often different batches made from the same base materials would turn out different shades of any particular colour due to errors in the process. To compound matters variations of supply of pigments and oils would have an effect also upon shades produced. Variation of shade is almost certain and is even more of an issue when fade or staining is taken into consideration.

 

Even today with chemically synthesised pigments and refined base oils/resins from the petrochemical industry colour matching is quite a difficult task, in 1829 it would have been even more so.

 

Gibbo.

[No Decorum]

24 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

That would be the logical position for the DCC socket?

There's pictures of wires going between loco/tender and only chain between tender/coaches. And as the chassis is rather open underneath, the barrel looks large enough to just about squeeze a socket and chip in. 

Aha! Good thinking. Nevertheless, the barrel looks as if half the contents would leak away. Perhaps a less obtrusive join will appear on the production models but it is likely too late to alter anything now.

[Denbridge]

34 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

I might be wrong, but I'm sure some of the colour queries regarding Rocket have been distinctly "tongue in cheek" as a response to some of the more ridiculous colour-related statements made in other discussions.

 

It's an "out of the ordinary" "must-have" model, so I'm having it! 

Me too!

[Denbridge]

17 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Denbridge,

 

Paint was up until relatively recently was mixed by the painter immediately prior to application and was made from boiled linseed oil, white lead, pigments and thinned out with turpentine. All of these ingredients would be either weighed out or measured by volume proportionally and very often different batches made from the same base materials would turn out different shades of any particular colour due to errors in the process. To compound matters variations of supply of pigments and oils would have an effect also upon shades produced. Variation of shade is almost certain and is even more of an issue when fade or staining is taken into consideration.

 

Even today with chemically synthesised pigments and refined base oils/resins from the petrochemical industry colour matching is quite a difficult task, in 1829 it would have been even more so.

 

Gibbo.

I know. In fact your post is almost word for word the same as I've posted many times in various places. I've given up on those who throw tantrums if they can't get all their carriages in exactly the same shades, particularly when it comes to roof colour!

[BernardTPM]

With the barrel the obvious way to hide that would have been to make the full ends part of either the top or bottom, going into a slot. Part of the bottom would have been best as a slot at the top would be less visible than one at the bottom. You could always graft in the Airfix kit parts.

[Gibbo675]

5 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I know. In fact your post is almost word for word the same as I've posted many times in various places. I've given up on those who throw tantrums if they can't get all their carriages in exactly the same shades, particularly when it comes to roof colour!

Hi Denbridge,

 

I'm pleased that I'm not the only one !!!

 

Gibbo.

[PaulRhB]

4 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

You could always graft in the Airfix kit parts.

Or persuade someone to do an etch overlay for the ends  I’ll wait and see as this is no doubt a sample so fit may be tighter on the production ones. Not difficult to sort if it is obvious. 

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

Yellow and black was the colour already chosen by the L&M for their posh coaching stock. Competitors in the Rainhill trials were not expected to use any particular colour scheme on their locos. However, the Stephensons deliberately painted Rocket in yellow and black to match the coaches, as a PR move. Given that they were using their own paint, though, and not the company's, it's likely that it wasn't a perfect match and there would probably have been a visible difference between the shades of yellow on loco and coaches.

 

Thanks for that.  I'd just assumed that the locomotives and coaches would all have been painted with the same batch of paint, but your explanation of two different sources of yellow makes sense.  In that case, it probably doesn't matter if the locomotive matches the coaches, although I suspect that there are many of us would like them to match for the same reason as some people don't like rakes of coaches with different liveries.  Maybe it's OCD tendencies.

[adb968008]

On 07/01/2020 at 21:43, Steamport Southport said:

 

Take your pick from.

 

Arrow, Wildfire, Dart, Comet and Phoenix.

 

Does anyone make nameplates for these .?

[jukebox]

10 hours ago, truffy said:

 

Or, for those of a more attention-challenged disposition, a still from the same film:

 

 

Cripes!  I didn't know video existed of Mike Sharman demonstrating flexi-chas that far back....

[MGR Hooper!]

6 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

Both versions, or just the limited edition?

Both versions Mark

 

Cheers!

[Hal Nail]

8 hours ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

I might be wrong, but I'm sure some of the colour queries regarding Rocket have been distinctly "tongue in cheek" as a response to some of the more ridiculous colour-related statements made in other discussions.

I particularly like the suggestion it was probably green in service - something akin to GWR but paler perhaps? 

[Pre Grouping fan]

10 hours ago, No Decorum said:

 

It may be that they've used an early sample to do the decoration while any mods were done to the tooling, speeds the process up slightly which may explain the why there's a funny join. I agree it would have been better to have the top half/ends of the barrel as one part meaning any join would be on the lower half. But that would mean using slides for the ends which would add to the cost. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Pre Grouping fan

[PaulRhB]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Does anyone make nameplates for these .?

Narrow Planet would custom make them for you once sizes are known. 
 

31 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 . . been better to have the top half/ends of the barrel as one part meaning any join would be on the lower half. But that would mean using slides for the ends which would add to the cost. 

Not necessarily if just the vertically planked disc was all that was part of the top half, leaving the rim as part of the bottom half. Bernard suggested that further up the page already. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by PaulRhB

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

I particularly like the suggestion it was probably green in service - something akin to GWR but paler perhaps? 

 

This near-contemporary lithograph of Northumbrian (one of the last of the Rocket class locos) is the primary source for the suggestion that they were green in service. 

 

 

It has to be borne in mind, though, that this is an artist's impression; it appears to be based on an earlier drawing of Northumbrian and, at the time the lithograph was first published, the loco it depicts was wrongly identified as Rocket and the location wrongly identified as the Rainhill Trials.  That's not possible in reality; although Rocket was later rebuilt to have horizontal cylinders like those on Northumbrian (and is now preserved in that state), the early drawings of the trial contestants clearly show Rocket with angled cylinders. And this drawing is missing the water barrel on the tender; although that itself was a fairly short-lived design (it wasn't long before a rectangular tank on wheels, that would be recognisable as a tender today, became the norm), it would have been necessary on as small a tender as the one depicted here. So, while this is a plausible colour scheme, it's by no means conclusive.

[MarkSG]

The other thing to bear in mind about Rocket is that it was the APT-E of its day. It was designed and built as a proof of concept in order to win the trials and earn Stephenson the contract to build the production run. Which it did, very successfully. But even before the L&M had opened, Stephenson had improved on Rocket's design and the production versions differed from it.

 

All the contemporary drawings of early L&M trains in service, as opposed to the trials, show horizontal-cylindered locos, and many of them have more modern-looking tenders. This print, for example, is dated from 1831, just a year after the L&M opened, and the loco, while clearly a Rocket class, already has significant differences from Rocket. But here, too, we have to take account of possible liberties being taken by the artist.

Edited January 9, 2020 by MarkSG