New Hornby Rocket

[7APT7]

54 minutes ago, John ks said:

I was a bit slow deciding that I wanted a Rocket & was only interested in the red box edition 

Placed my order with Hattons & just got 2 emails, one saying "We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809)" & the other headed "Hattons Model Railways - Order number: IOPA4742557 - Order manually cancelled by Vicki Ramaya"

 

"Not happy Jan"

 

John

 

Sorry to hear about that John, I feel your pain on that mate, I am still mad about it now with the RHTT's. Customer service and a good customer reputation surely is key to a successful business, but It seems to be only Hatton's by the sounds of it... I just don't understand, as they must know what figure Hornby have said what numbers they are having up front, before Hatton's even List it on there website, so why accept more order's than they are actually receiving in the first place... its NUTS... bad management...

 

I think Hatton's think they are invincible now they have become a manufacturer, and for them, it's a Win/Win situation... really.., but at the cost of loosing a good reputation... they need to re-evaluate the sales process of how they do things.... But again sorry to hear it as happened to you to... that's the third tonight including myself... its bad business practice...  

 

Jamie

Edited February 28, 2020 by 7APT7

[PaulRhB]

Well sales is their main business. I have had mixed customer service to be honest, from very very good to the same irritation of a rather curt we’ve cancelled your order email. 
It’s a curse of getting big and the sheer volume of work the staff have to do trying to get a bulk shipment split repacked and despatched. 

[scots region]

I've had my order amended to R3810, though I do know wonder if that's going to turn out to be too good to be true. 

[John ks]

15 minutes ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Sorry to hear about that John, I feel your pain on that mate, I am still mad about it now with the RHTT's. Customer service and a good customer reputation surely is key to a successful business, but It seems to be only Hatton's by the sounds of it... I just don't understand, as they must know what figure Hornby have said what numbers they are having up front, before Hatton's even List it on there website, so why accept more order's than they are actually receiving in the first place... its NUTS... bad management...

 

I think Hatton's think they are invincible now they have become a manufacturer, and for them, it's a Win/Win situation... really.., but at the cost of loosing a good reputation... they need to re-evaluate the sales process of how they do things.... But again sorry to hear it as happened to you to... that's the third tonight including myself... its bad business practice...  

 

Jamie

Thanks for that Jamie

Looks like my story might have a happy ending.

I found a store in Oz that has 2 on order, one already ordered & one I have now ordered

 

John

[7APT7]

2 minutes ago, John ks said:

Thanks for that Jamie

Looks like my story might have a happy ending.

I found a store in Oz that has 2 on order, one already ordered & one I have now ordered

 

John

 

Win/Win then John, Bonus, Drinks all round for that one John ... yay

That's a point... I wonder if oversea's buyer's stand a much higher chance than the people in the UK and getting a LTD Ed...

 

Jamie

[Robin Brasher]

According to page 164 of Pat Hammond's Tri-ang Railways book twice as many R346 presentation sets were ordered from abroad rather than for Britain, Tri=ang sold 34,000 sets which may explain why Hornby is unable to satisfy demand by producing 1,500.

 

I ran my 'Rocket' set again last night at the Wimborne Railway Society meeting.  I had a half hour window on the track.  The R3809 'Rocket' set is very delicate and it took me about 15 minutes to plug in the driver, Joseph Locke, and to plug in the slack rope couplings. I gave up trying to plug in the fireman into a tiny slot.  One member said I should have glued him in but then I would not have been able to put the model back in the box.

 

There is not much you can do with the R3809 'Rocket' except run it forward whereas you can remotely uncouple the Tri-ang version and shunt coaches and wagons onto a siding and it also had a smoke unit. The Tri-ang version was more robust and had more play value.

 

Although the members do not look interested in the new model they were very impressed with it and comparing the two models the new one is much more realistic.

 

 

[The Black Hat]

8 hours ago, 7APT7 said:

 

Sorry to hear about that John, I feel your pain on that mate, I am still mad about it now with the RHTT's. Customer service and a good customer reputation surely is key to a successful business, but It seems to be only Hatton's by the sounds of it... I just don't understand, as they must know what figure Hornby have said what numbers they are having up front, before Hatton's even List it on there website, so why accept more order's than they are actually receiving in the first place... its NUTS... bad management...

 

I think Hatton's think they are invincible now they have become a manufacturer, and for them, it's a Win/Win situation... really.., but at the cost of loosing a good reputation... they need to re-evaluate the sales process of how they do things.... But again sorry to hear it as happened to you to... that's the third tonight including myself... its bad business practice...  

 

Jamie

 

I think that's a bit harsh on Hattons. With such a model being made I can see it being incredibly popular and that Hattons will have had people rush them for orders. Add that software in computer systems can also see people register an order for something at a total Hattons were promised only to receive less. It could not be Hornby's fault. With these being high detail and spec any ones coming in and damaged would need to be returned and thus reduce Hattons total. That leaves them short for numbers promised.

Im not saying its Hornbys fault, or Hattons, but being a major retailer, having software that might take time to update, or by having issues with supply could all explain it. Sadly, its not ideal for those that find they have not made the list, but there are times now where batch production done to pre-order is causing issues with supplying demand. Hattons sound 66s have been more popular than they would expect and Hornby might have been caught out with the supply of Rocket. Perhaps runs of some times need to be increased, especially when a popular item for Hornby would be great at bringing in capital and paying down creditors. The problem then is knowing what will be popular and making more of it so that you don't have over supply.

That means that Hattons can't think they are invincible, but surely must be trying to strike a balance that is even harder for them given the higher volumes and supply they have to deal with.

 

[Andy Hayter]

I think you are wrong Black Hat.  From what I have seen, if you purchase something from their second hand stock, it disappears from the website almost immediately*.  This means their stock system is working in real time - which is what I would expect from an organisation with their turn-over.

 

This in turn means they have taken more Rocket orders than they could guarantee from their known allocation - probably in the hope/expectation that they would get more because they are a major Hornby outlet.  No doubt in the past tis has happened.  Not this time.

 

I am afraid my opinion of Hattons has degraded over the last couple of years.  They did not inform customers that their Bachmann pre-orders would not be satisfied when they fell out with Bachmann.  This nearly left me without a model I had had on order for years.  Now it seems they have confirmed pre-orders beyond what they could guarantee.  Further by not warning customers that they might be on a waiting list for R3809, they have stopped customers from ordering R3810 as a second best - and this model now appears to be fully sold out at most major outlets.

 

A review of their sales practices and their customer communications would seem to be in order from my perspective.

 

*and I am usually making my purchases outside normal business hours.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

There is not much you can do with the R3809 'Rocket' except run it forward whereas you can remotely uncouple the Tri-ang version and shunt coaches and wagons onto a siding and it also had a smoke unit. The Tri-ang version was more robust and had more play value.

 

Given the "small" production numbers for R3809, I think that Rocket may have been produced as something for collectors who would either set it up in a display case, or just leave it in the box in perpetuity.  That it moves under its own steam, as it were, is something of a bonus.  Its a pity that Hornby didn't at least design in NEM sockets (and provide a bag of small tension lock couplings) to allow the use of more conventional coupling systems for owners who want to use the model in a more active manner.

 

[mckinneyc]

I managed to get a Triang boxed set when they briefly came into stock on the Hornby website.

 

I had accepted I probably wouldn't get one.

 

From the experiences I've read above I might pre-order the W1s I want from Hornby themselves.

[Clearwater]

24 minutes ago, mckinneyc said:

I managed to get a Triang boxed set when they briefly came into stock on the Hornby website.

 

I had accepted I probably wouldn't get one.

 

From the experiences I've read above I might pre-order the W1s I want from Hornby themselves.

I’m not sure that Hornby treat their own on line store that much differently to retailers.  If anything, they seem to have deprioritised it as part of their efforts to rebuild relations with model shops.  Giving their own store a disproportionate allocation might not endear them to retailers.

[moonshinerunner]

It looks like I am another one who was caught by Hattons. I pre ordered back on the 8th of January when Hattens sent out the email. Then on the 14th when I noticed my order was cancelled so I contacted them and I have an email that said, 

Hello

Thank you for your email,

 

This item is now sold out to preorders which means our full allocation we will be receiving from Hornby will go straight to our preorders. Your order is included in this so you will receive one and there's nothing to worry about.

 

I hope this clarifies matters for you but if you have any further questions then please feel free to contact us.

 

Kind Regards,

Michael Robinson
Deal Manager
Pre-Owned Team

Hatton's Model Railways
17 Montague Road
Widnes
WA8 8FZ
0151 733 3655

Appreciate this response · View thread history

BUT THIS MORNING WHEN I CHECKED MY EMAILS

No name signed at the bottom.

This is an automatic notification to inform you that order number IOPA4742671 has been cancelled from our systems, and we will not attempt to process this again.

The following items were in your order:
"1 * Hornby R3809 Stephenson's Rocket 0-2-2 train pack with three Liverpool and Manchester Railway 4 wheel coaches - Hornby Centenary limited edition - Sold out on Pre Order @ £189.99 each http://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail.aspx?SID=513716


Reasons for cancellation include:

Duplication of order on system
Non-processing of card payment
Customer request to cancel order

If you still wish to order these items, you will need to place another order via our websites or over the telephone.

Regards

Hatton's Model Railways
17 Montague Road
Widnes
WA8 8FZ
0151 733 3655
http://www.hattons.co.uk
Telephone lines manned Monday - Saturday 7:30am - 6pm Sun 9am-5pm
Store open Monday - Sunday 9am - 5pm

[mckinneyc]

I never thought of it that way Clearwater.

 

Living in Northern Ireland I have to shop online for most of my models and associated products.

 

I've used three of the bigger retailers in the last year and all have been positive experiences. 

 

I wonder if the response to this particular model has taken Hornby and the retailers by surprise? 

 

Mine will primarily sit in my display cabinet as I don't have a layout. I do get the trains out every so often. 

 

The Ulster Model Railway Society meets 5 minute walk away from my house so I should join so I can run my stock more regularly

[Pete the Elaner]

34 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Its a pity that Hornby didn't at least design in NEM sockets (and provide a bag of small tension lock couplings) to allow the use of more conventional coupling systems for owners who want to use the model in a more active manner.

 

You can't please everyone.

Judging from the photos on p28 of this thread, the tender sits too low to mount an NEM socket below. It would have to be part of the chassis & body, which would detract from the model's appearance. I am very pleased they didn't do this.

I think the bespoke chain couplings look way better.

 

I can't imagine coupling the coaches behind a Jinty or Duchess, or running some LMS suburbans behind Rocket anyway.

[GoingUnderground]

12 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

I am getting rather baffled over the obsession with the Tri-ang edition. All you're getting compared to the standard version is a different box and coach names.

You've totally missed the point.

 

The different box takes me, and I'm sure many, many, others of my generation, back to our first Triang Railways train set and the joy and pleasure that intro to our marvellous hobby has given us over the last 50+ years. It is so good to see the "right" name again on Margate products, even if it was only one train pack made in China, and is likely to be the only one this century.

[Hroth]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Judging from the photos on p28 of this thread, the tender sits too low to mount an NEM socket below. It would have to be part of the chassis & body, which would detract from the model's appearance.

 

Which is why I said "designed in".  Something similar to the  plug-in provided for the Sentinel Shunter could have been designed to mask the socket and provide the curious coupling that Rocket comes with.  As for running the coaches behind a more modern loco* or running more modern coaches behind Rocket, I think you're missing the point.  An automatic coupling would enhance the usability of the set in a daily use scenario, especially if Hornby produced alternative coaches for individual sale.

 

* They might be fun behind a "Smoky Joe".... 

[Pete the Elaner]

18 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I think you're missing the point.  An automatic coupling would enhance the usability of the set in a daily use scenario, especially if Hornby produced alternative coaches for individual sale.

 

* They might be fun behind a "Smoky Joe".... 

No, I don't think I've missed the point at all.

 

Hornby have tried hard to produce a scale model which looks impressive. It is tiny. In this regard, I still don't think the photos on p28 do it justice.

I saw it for the first time at Glasgow on Saturday & was shocked at how small it really is. Even a small tension lock would be almost as big as the tender's barrel. Such a coupling would look utterly hideous & completely ruin what is a fine looking model to a point where it would have a detrimental affect on sales.

[Georgeconna]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

No, I don't think I've missed the point at all.

 

Hornby have tried hard to produce a scale model which looks impressive. It is tiny. In this regard, I still don't think the photos on p28 do it justice.

I saw it for the first time at Glasgow on Saturday & was shocked at how small it really is. Even a small tension lock would be almost as big as the tender's barrel. Such a coupling would look utterly hideous & completely ruin what is a fine looking model to a point where it would have a detrimental affect on sales.

 

yes i agree, it looks quite nice in the Model Club Photos.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Georgeconna

[The Black Hat]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I think you are wrong Black Hat.  From what I have seen, if you purchase something from their second hand stock, it disappears from the website almost immediately*.  This means their stock system is working in real time - which is what I would expect from an organisation with their turn-over.

 

This in turn means they have taken more Rocket orders than they could guarantee from their known allocation - probably in the hope/expectation that they would get more because they are a major Hornby outlet.  No doubt in the past tis has happened.  Not this time.

 

I am afraid my opinion of Hattons has degraded over the last couple of years.  They did not inform customers that their Bachmann pre-orders would not be satisfied when they fell out with Bachmann.  This nearly left me without a model I had had on order for years.  Now it seems they have confirmed pre-orders beyond what they could guarantee.  Further by not warning customers that they might be on a waiting list for R3809, they have stopped customers from ordering R3810 as a second best - and this model now appears to be fully sold out at most major outlets.

 

A review of their sales practices and their customer communications would seem to be in order from my perspective.

 

*and I am usually making my purchases outside normal business hours.

 

Sorry, but how do you know this?! How can you say that is the problem!

Yes the second hand stock disappears but that is stock that in their possession and they have it. The orders for Rocket will be on what is predicted or expected and as I said there are a number of reasons why numbers could change - thus it might not be solely Hatton's fault. Hattons are a big retailer and do have control over things they have on site but there are still issues outside of their control and I am sure they work with suppliers effectively to mitigate issues such as this.   

[Mel_H]

On 25/02/2020 at 16:38, dibber25 said:

Trouble is, try putting 'Scotsman' and 'OO' into any search engine and you can imagine what you'll get!! (CJL)

 

Just a load of LNER porn!

[Mel_H]

On 25/02/2020 at 18:42, MarkSG said:

 

He's also responsible for Shap summit - Stephenson wanted to go the long way round, via the coast (on the route that does now exist, serving Whitehaven and the other coastal towns, but it would have been a distinctly suboptimal route for what later became the WCML), but the directors went with Locke's route.

 

It's seems a little odd that Locke is much less well known than his contemporaries the Stephensons and Isambard Kingdom Brunel. He is responsible for more of Britain's railway network than they were. But he was specifically a civil engineer; he built railways, not locomotives. He didn't invent anything or pioneer anything, he just just did an excellent job of constructing railways for other people's inventions and innovations to travel on. Brunel and the Stephensons built railways as well (although George Stephenson was nowhere near as good at it as Locke), but it's their locomotives and their innovations which they are primarily remembered for.

 

In fact, Locke's one genuine innovation, the use of continuous profile bullhead rail (rather than the fish-bellied rail preferred by the Stephensons) was, in retrospect, a side alley. Flat-bottom rail had already been introduced by Charles Vignoles, another early rail engineer, but Locke thought that by using bullhead he could turn it over and re-use it the other way up when the top got worn. As we now know (and as Locke himself discovered pretty quickly), that didn't work, but Locke's influence meant that bullhead rail became the norm for over a century.

 

OT, I know, but can anyone recommend a good book on Joseph Locke's life and work?

 

[MarkSG]

3 minutes ago, Mel_H said:

 

OT, I know, but can anyone recommend a good book on Joseph Locke's life and work?

 

 

The references in his Wikipedia article seem mainly to be from books about other people (eg, the Stephensons) that make mention of him in passing. But one book specifically about Locke that is cited is "Joseph Locke: Railway Revolutionary" by Norman Webster, published in 1971. That's obviously out of print now, but Amazon does have some second hand copies on offer from marketplace sellers at reasonable prices, and it has some good reviews. I suspect you could probably also find it on eBay, although I haven't looked.

 

https://amzn.to/388xTFY

 

That Amazon page also links to another book about Locke, "Joseph Locke: Civil Engineer and Railway Builder 1805 - 1860" by Anthony Burton, published in 2017. That's still in print and available new, but costs five times the price of a used edition of Webster's biography! It might be worth looking at, though, and also has some good reviews.

 

https://amzn.to/2TiImt2

 

 

 

[newbryford]

Who would want to be a model railway manufacturer?

 

Without pre-orders, guessing  demand must be a "finger in the air" and see which way the wind blows.

As the Rocket appeared so quickly after Hornby's announcement of it, it must have already been made so they were unable to influence the quantity produced.

 

So the retailers order them on announcement date and then have no real idea how many they are getting if demand is higher than supply.

 

As much as some folks aren't keen to support it, the likes of Rapido and Revolution's business model of making a quantity to pre-order (and a few more), will satisfy general demand, but that then brings in the uncertainty of what the model looks like and how well it runs. And also that a deposit has to be paid up front.

I took the plunge and ordered (and pre-paid) for some Revolution stock as I was happy with what I had seen of their N gauge releases. 

Similarly, I bought the Rapido APT-E on the strength of their previous models.

 

That would be the only way to satisfy  - at least the initial - demand.

 

Getting back on the Rocket topic.

I wonder what will happen in  the next few days/weeks as R3810 starts hitting the shops? 

A repeat performance frenzy on ebay and with retailers over-selling?

How many will have ordered a "normal" Rocket since the appearance of R3809 and decided that they now want one?

[Mel_H]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

I think you are wrong Black Hat.  From what I have seen, if you purchase something from their second hand stock, it disappears from the website almost immediately*.  This means their stock system is working in real time - which is what I would expect from an organisation with their turn-over.

 

This in turn means they have taken more Rocket orders than they could guarantee from their known allocation - probably in the hope/expectation that they would get more because they are a major Hornby outlet.  No doubt in the past tis has happened.  Not this time.

 

I am afraid my opinion of Hattons has degraded over the last couple of years.  They did not inform customers that their Bachmann pre-orders would not be satisfied when they fell out with Bachmann.  This nearly left me without a model I had had on order for years.  Now it seems they have confirmed pre-orders beyond what they could guarantee.  Further by not warning customers that they might be on a waiting list for R3809, they have stopped customers from ordering R3810 as a second best - and this model now appears to be fully sold out at most major outlets.

 

A review of their sales practices and their customer communications would seem to be in order from my perspective.

 

*and I am usually making my purchases outside normal business hours.

 

A friend of mine is another one who had the Hattons 'rejection' email - he was a previously loyal customer.

 

And, as others have noted, the non-limited edition Rocket is also sold out from them.

 

Fortunately he managed to find another model shop with stock of the non-limited edition - a phone call established that they had still got stock of their allocation.

 

My view is that Hatton's haven't acted with honour over this.

 

Given with their experience of the market and pace of sales, they should have known it would be popular. So taking orders on the basis that they might pick up some more stock - for an extremely limited edition - strikes of poor customer service at best, and sharp practice at worst.

 

My friend normally buys from his local (very small) model shop, but they weren't going to stock it. I also shop locally as much as I can.

 

I concur that after last year's Bachmann fiasco and Hattons' inability to be straightforward with their customers, people might well be advised to consider taking their custom elsewhere for such items. And that is how business works.

 

 

[adb968008]

So my order from Hattons has come good 

 

I was quite nervous after my previous episode with the 27 and 29.

I may be able someone a silver lining here...

 

A day after the Hattons order on Jan 6th, I ordered some Piko coaches from a model shop in Germany. They never sell Hornby ever, but I was very surprised to see Hornby Rocket advertised, so I reserved it. The shop itself is occasionally unable to supply in the past but they allow free reservations, email you before payment and give option to cancel. They have removed the Rocket now saying sold out, but my pre-order remains accepted. IF it comes good and they email me, I can cancel or dont mind picking it up for someone who missed out above, they listed at 200 Euros, UK postage is usually £5/6...so rrp.

 

But there.. some shops overseas in Europe are stocking Rocket, and apparently ones that don't regularly stock UK Hornby range (but do stock Rivarossi etc), you may want to look abroad.

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by adb968008