New Hornby Rocket

[Pre Grouping fan]

52 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Do you then?   Apparently not.  All we do know is that according to Hornby Hattons received their full quota of this item and that (according to some posts - Hattons had been made aware of what their quota would be).   The debate then centres around two critical things -

1. Did Hattons continue to accept pre-orders in excess of their quota once they knew what that quota was? and,

2. Did they immediately advise people who had already pre-ordered that they would be unable to fulfil all the orders they had because a quota had been imposed and that some customers would be unlucky?

In the Hattons section of the forum, there's a post about the issues with the rocket supply. This is a quite from Hattons Dave on the issues in that thread

 

"Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order."

[Ian Hargrave]

2 hours ago, Denbridge said:

Do you KNOW at what point Hattons became aware they would not be receiving their full order? 

I doubt you do. So attributing blame to a company without knowing the full story is rather pathetic, but sadly an all too common state of affairs in what is otherwise a fine hobby.

 
That is to say at the very least an unhelpful response.FYI,this is not the first time this has occurred with a Hattons pre order.

No,sorry,please don’t fly off the handle in a high handed manner with someone who’s had a raw deal,because you may not have been the recipient  of emails such as “ we are sorry we cannot supply your order because the item is no longer being made by the manufacturer “....which was palpably untrue because it was in stock elsewhere and was as a result of a similar scenario as the current over ordering . Yes I had one of those..several years ago.
 

  History does have a habit of repeat performances.Full story...really?

Edited March 2, 2020 by Ian Hargrave
Adding text

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Do you then?   Apparently not.  All we do know is that according to Hornby Hattons received their full quota of this item and that (according to some posts - Hattons had been made aware of what their quota would be).   The debate then centres around two critical things -

1. Did Hattons continue to accept pre-orders in excess of their quota once they knew what that quota was? and,

2. Did they immediately advise people who had already pre-ordered that they would be unable to fulfil all the orders they had because a quota had been imposed and that some customers would be unlucky?

 

Just to add my thoughts as a devoted Hattons customer and the lone recipient of my hobby spending for many years.  I am not defending the store and in the case of the Rocket I had no interest in purchasing one but I feel that Hornby really needs to look at its distribution system particularly when limited release items are available for pre-order.

 

In Hattons' defence,  I believe that yes, they received their total allocation and sold them,  but somehow received the impression that there may be more available if other stores did not take up their full allocations.  Who gave the store that impression?  I believe that those later sales with the unconfirmed allocation should have been advised that the store may not be able to fulfill the order and advise customers of this to enable them to look elsewhere.  Cynically,  I believe that the allocations were already full at many stores before Hornby officially opened their order books and stores that sold their allocated stock on eBay and not to personal customers should be the ones criticised.  I believe that Hattons acted in good faith on presumed knowledge of a further allocation of stock,  but should have advised those customers of the possibility that their order may not be able to be filled.   When it comes to very limited stock a more equitable and moral system should be employed to allow all interested customers an even chance of securing a purchase and not leave the sales to the insider trading and sales to mates instore or to staff to onsell on auction sites.  I feel it unethical for a staff member of a store to be able to profit at the expense of a genuine purchaser of the item.

[Barry Ten]

Chatting to a friend this morning who says he's already put sound in his Rocket. I cheekily asked if he'd used a 9F decoder but he went for a Peckett instead.

[Chrisr40]

12 minutes ago, Barry Ten said:

Chatting to a friend this morning who says he's already put sound in his Rocket. I cheekily asked if he'd used a 9F decoder but he went for a Peckett instead.

Wow this I would really like to see

[Ouroborus]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

 

In Hattons' defence,  I believe that yes, they received their total allocation and sold them,  but somehow received the impression that there may be more available if other stores did not take up their full allocations.  Who gave the store that impression?  

 

I benefited from such a scenario, albeit on a completely different item.  I asked my LMS about an item that was out of stock and seemingly unavailable anywhere.  A few phone calls went into to Hornby and up turned said item, reportedly stock allocated to a shop who failed to pay his bills and thus put back into the system by Hornby.  Maybe i received somebody elses preorder for  this item?   Like I said, this wasn't Rocket.

 

I guess the relationship your LMS has with Hornby may have some sway and it again reinforces the benefit of a good relationship with your LMS

 

[Mel_H]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Just to add my thoughts as a devoted Hattons customer and the lone recipient of my hobby spending for many years.  I am not defending the store and in the case of the Rocket I had no interest in purchasing one but I feel that Hornby really needs to look at its distribution system particularly when limited release items are available for pre-order.

 

In Hattons' defence,  I believe that yes, they received their total allocation and sold them,  but somehow received the impression that there may be more available if other stores did not take up their full allocations.  Who gave the store that impression?  I believe that those later sales with the unconfirmed allocation should have been advised that the store may not be able to fulfill the order and advise customers of this to enable them to look elsewhere.  Cynically,  I believe that the allocations were already full at many stores before Hornby officially opened their order books and stores that sold their allocated stock on eBay and not to personal customers should be the ones criticised.  I believe that Hattons acted in good faith on presumed knowledge of a further allocation of stock,  but should have advised those customers of the possibility that their order may not be able to be filled.   When it comes to very limited stock a more equitable and moral system should be employed to allow all interested customers an even chance of securing a purchase and not leave the sales to the insider trading and sales to mates instore or to staff to onsell on auction sites.  I feel it unethical for a staff member of a store to be able to profit at the expense of a genuine purchaser of the item.

 

That's not correct, I'm sorry to say. As others have posted previously on this thread, when Hornby had its 'retailer days' in January, at that point they opened orders. Retailers were 'allocated' a quantity (based on their previous trading with Hornby - so those that buy more, get a bigger allocation).

 

It was up to the retailer to decide how many that they wanted to order (and this applies to all models, not just the limited-edition Rocket). It appears that most (or all) took up their full allocation.

 

This is normal practice by Hornby (and I believe some other manufacturers) to avoid the problem that both Hornby and Bachmann have had in the past of large quantities of unsold stock at Margate or Barwell.

 

If all the retailers don't take up their allocation by the 'deadline day', then there is an opportunity for other retailers to have what's left over.

 

In this case, Hattons took orders from customers in the hope/expectation that it would be able to get further supplies.

 

Given that all model shops sold out within hours, or at least a few days of the limited edition Rocket, patently this wasn't going to be the case. In other words, all 1,500 were already spoken for.

 

In the interests of good customer service, Hattons should have made it clear that they had sold out of its allocation (which it appears all other retailers did), and that they could not guarantee to supply orders placed after then, rather than continuing to accept orders.

 

Why Hattons did this is not known. Like 'BachmannGate' it has said nothing, other than to give a vague impression that it's not their fault.

 

What we don't know is whether Hornby had given Hattons the idea that there would be more. However, there is no evidence that this was the case.

 

The only other avenue for further supplies is unsold stock from other retailers. Hattons does buy 'unsolds' from time-to-time, but this tends to be items that haven't sold and have been sitting on the shelves for a while.

 

In terms of the allocation system, this procedure happens with all Hornby items. I'm aware that in some cases (such as 'ordinary coaches') retailers rarely order up to their limit.

 

The allocation system is fair, as it stops retailers 'bagging' all/most of the stock and therefore becoming a de facto sole supplier.

 

It's not just Hornby and Bachmann that use the allocation system, Heljan does as well (and possibly others).

 

When you see the manufacturer's (not a retailer's) site say 'sold out at Heljan' or 'sold out at Hornby', for a new model, then this means that all the allocated stock has already been taken up by retailers.

 

With all manufacturers now producing much smaller quantities of models, placing an advance order if you want to guarantee getting a specific model, and the end (or certainly fewer) 'fire sales' of very cheap stock that isn't shifting.

[Mel_H]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
That is to say at the very least an unhelpful response.FYI,this is not the first time this has occurred with a Hattons pre order.

No,sorry,please don’t fly off the handle in a high handed manner with someone who’s had a raw deal,because you may not have been the recipient  of emails such as “ we are sorry we cannot supply your order because the item is no longer being made by the manufacturer “....which was palpably untrue because it was in stock elsewhere and was as a result of a similar scenario as the current over ordering . Yes I had one of those..several years ago.
 

  History does have a habit of repeat performances.Full story...really?

 

Okay, it doesn't have to be like this. This email has been sent by Forest of Dean-based Derails this afternoon. As a friend of mine said, "This is why Derails is now my supplier of choice."

 

I think it's a good example of proactive communication, in a way that keeps customers happy. It's reproduced below, in full.

 

Good Afternoon,

You are receiving this email as you have pre-ordered the R3810 Hornby Rocket Train Pack from Derails. We are expecting these packs to arrive with us over the next couple of weeks, and we'll be in contact as soon as they arrive.

 

We are aware of the stories circulating regarding some retailers (not us, thankfully) altering the price they are charging without notice or cancelling pre-orders of these items due to oversell – we do not wish to comment on whether they are true or not, but are glad to say that this will not happen at Derails.

 

We have been in constant contact with Hornby and checked and double checked the expected allocation of R3810 we will be receiving on numerous occasions, and we have not sold above our expected allocation.

 

The only potential issue that could arise is if Hornby drastically under-deliver our expected allocation, however we do trust that Hornby will deliver our entire order to us. Having spoken to them today, this item is not oversold on their end and they are confident that the full shipment will be arriving from China, and this gives me great confidence that all will be as expected.

 

Of the many that we have arriving here at Derails, we have kept six sets unsold to act as replacements in the unlikely event that any models do arrive damaged, and so on this basis and providing that no-more than six models arrived damaged, there should be no-one left waiting for repairs to be carried out or with a refund and no model.

 

Lastly, the price is confirmed to be £161.99 with free-postage, this is guaranteed and will not change. Postage will be via DPD Local courier and as usual, when we call for the balance payment, we will organise a delivery day that's best for you.

 

We understand the concerns that have been raised and I hope this puts a few minds at rest.

 

Kind Regards,

Little Dan

[Nile]

6 hours ago, newbryford said:

Is the black/white moulding between the axles a plug and socket?

Yes. I hope Aaron doesn't mind this edit of his photo.

The black part that the red arrow is pointing to is a hinged flap. It can be lifted by inserting something thin where the green arrow is pointing. The flexi can then be removed, although the drawbar pin makes that difficult.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Nile

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Chrisr40 said:

Wow this I would really like to see

 

He's not on RMweb unfortunately.

[aaron3820]

I’ve managed to put a loop of track together this evening to give Rocket a bit of a run. Happy to report that it’s been running smoothly for the past hour and a bit non stop with no issues rearing their head. 

[The Stationmaster]

18 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

 

I benefited from such a scenario, albeit on a completely different item.  I asked my LMS about an item that was out of stock and seemingly unavailable anywhere.  A few phone calls went into to Hornby and up turned said item, reportedly stock allocated to a shop who failed to pay his bills and thus put back into the system by Hornby.  Maybe i received somebody elses preorder for  this item?   Like I said, this wasn't Rocket.

 

I guess the relationship your LMS has with Hornby may have some sway and it again reinforces the benefit of a good relationship with your LMS

 

You are not alone in benefitting in that way and i've no doubt that others who regularly use their 'local' model shop for their purchases might have had a similar experience.  And 'local' needn't necessarily mean just round the corner in this day and age.  If you are a regular customer and get to know the shop and those who own and staff it then it might even be a distant relationship by 'phone with occasional personal visits.  But it still becomes the equivalent of a local shop in terms of a customer relationship and the standard of service which goes with that relationship.  Very different from simply being a number on a computerised ordering and email system and it shows how it pays dividends - not necessarily in terms of price - to deal with the smaller shop which then becomes your local model shop, even if it isn't just down the road (one of mine is over an hour's drive away - which is nothing in this day and age).

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, Mel_H said:

 

Okay, it doesn't have to be like this. This email has been sent by Forest of Dean-based Derails this afternoon. As a friend of mine said, "This is why Derails is now my supplier of choice."

 

I think it's a good example of proactive communication, in a way that keeps customers happy. It's reproduced below, in full.

 

Good Afternoon,

You are receiving this email as you have pre-ordered the R3810 Hornby Rocket Train Pack from Derails. We are expecting these packs to arrive with us over the next couple of weeks, and we'll be in contact as soon as they arrive.

 

We are aware of the stories circulating regarding some retailers (not us, thankfully) altering the price they are charging without notice or cancelling pre-orders of these items due to oversell – we do not wish to comment on whether they are true or not, but are glad to say that this will not happen at Derails.

 

We have been in constant contact with Hornby and checked and double checked the expected allocation of R3810 we will be receiving on numerous occasions, and we have not sold above our expected allocation.

 

The only potential issue that could arise is if Hornby drastically under-deliver our expected allocation, however we do trust that Hornby will deliver our entire order to us. Having spoken to them today, this item is not oversold on their end and they are confident that the full shipment will be arriving from China, and this gives me great confidence that all will be as expected.

 

Of the many that we have arriving here at Derails, we have kept six sets unsold to act as replacements in the unlikely event that any models do arrive damaged, and so on this basis and providing that no-more than six models arrived damaged, there should be no-one left waiting for repairs to be carried out or with a refund and no model.

 

Lastly, the price is confirmed to be £161.99 with free-postage, this is guaranteed and will not change. Postage will be via DPD Local courier and as usual, when we call for the balance payment, we will organise a delivery day that's best for you.

 

We understand the concerns that have been raised and I hope this puts a few minds at rest.

 

Kind Regards,

Little Dan

 

I'm not being funny, but how many items do Derails despatch per day compared to Hattons, or even Rails or Kernow?

 

If you are expecting them to write individual emails for thousands of orders a day then they'll be sending out about ten parcels a day per worker. Then you'll have thousands of people complaining about where their models are.....

 

Just not realistic I'm afraid.

 

 

 

Jason

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I'm not being funny, but how many items do Derails despatch per day compared to Hattons, or even Rails or Kernow?

 

If you are expecting them to write individual emails for thousands of orders a day then they'll be sending out about ten parcels a day per worker. Then you'll have thousands of people complaining about where their models are.....

 

Just not realistic I'm afraid.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Hattons DID send out an e-mail to all customers whose orders they could not fulfil - it was just so uncaring that it might have been written by a robot.

 

A strong, sincere apology with assurances that it won't happen again - with perhaps an ex-gratia voucher - would have gone a long way towards mitigating the damage that they have done to their own reputation.

 

As it was, the apology only came after strong criticism here.

 

John Isherwood.

[Georgeconna]

59 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

You are not alone in benefitting in that way and i've no doubt that others who regularly use their 'local' model shop for their purchases might have had a similar experience.  And 'local' needn't necessarily mean just round the corner in this day and age.  If you are a regular customer and get to know the shop and those who own and staff it then it might even be a distant relationship by 'phone with occasional personal visits.  But it still becomes the equivalent of a local shop in terms of a customer relationship and the standard of service which goes with that relationship.  Very different from simply being a number on a computerised ordering and email system and it shows how it pays dividends - not necessarily in terms of price - to deal with the smaller shop which then becomes your local model shop, even if it isn't just down the road (one of mine is over an hour's drive away - which is nothing in this day and age).

 

Good Post, Plus the people that run the shop get to know the customers interests, I know I did when I worked in a shop, Who Modelled what etc and was able to put stuff aside for punters be it kits, trains or diecast and then tempted them to purchase on their next visit which was normally weekly!

 

There is a new chap in my LMS that I only met last Saturday as unfortunately the previous chap knew me quite well and my soft spot for British early Jets and SR stuff and was able to do as I stated above.

 

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Hattons DID send out an e-mail to all customers whose orders they could not fulfil - it was just so uncaring that it might have been written by a robot.

 

A strong, sincere apology with assurances that it won't happen again - with perhaps an ex-gratia voucher - would have gone a long way towards mitigating the damage that they have done to their own reputation.

 

As it was, the apology only came after strong criticism here.

 

John Isherwood.

 

I agree totally.

 

Just that the above email is one sent out where there hasn't even been a problem to what I expect to be a handful of customers. Now if Hattons have to send out emails when a model might be delayed because the boat is late (for example), they would be sending out thousands a day.

 

The same if I order something from Amazon. I don't expect a "nice" email if it's out of stock. I just want a refund.

 

If you want the personal touch then use smaller suppliers, if you aren't bothered then use the big boys.

 

 

 

Jason

[Colin_McLeod]

I see the letters LMS used to describe "Local Model Shop".

 

So does GWR  mean "Giant Warehouse Retailer"?

[Robin Brasher]

As Tri-ang sold 34,000 'Rocket' sets it is not 'Rocket' science for Hornby to expect demand to exceed supply if Hornby only produces 1,500.

 

On page 164 of Pat Hammond's book it says that "The 'Tri-ang News' advertisement feature at the time stated that the prototype was built in 1829 and drew a load equivalent to three times its own weight at speed of 122 miles per hour."

[PaulRhB]

8 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

built in 1829 and drew a load equivalent to three times its own weight at speed of 122 miles per hour."

And it only took Mallard another 109 years to add another 4.5 mph to that!   

[Robin Brasher]

Establishing a good relationship with you LMS does not always work. I ordered Volume 3 of 'The Story of Rovex' from my local model shop and then called in every week and the assistants said it has not come in yet. After about a month I saw the manager. He said that only five people had ordered the book and it was not worth his while ordering it until ten people wanted it. I cancelled my order and ordered one from the bookshop at Station Road, Swanage. The book came the following day and the manager of the bookshop told me that I know where to come now.  That is one of the reasons that I have been using Hattons.

 

Since then there has been a change of management at my LMS and the new manager has been much more amenable and, in the events, I made the right decision in ordering the 'Rocket' from her rather than from Hattons. There is also no danger of the model being damaged in transit if you get it from your local model shop.

[Islesy]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

As Tri-ang sold 34,000 'Rocket' sets it is not 'Rocket' science for Hornby to expect demand to exceed supply if Hornby only produces 1,500.

The thing is though Robin, Hornby haven’t just produced 1,500 units, that is just the Tri-ang Limited Edition for the Hornby 100 range. There’s another shipment due very soon that forms the main range edition, so there are more than enough to go round. Same locomotive, same figures, same tender and, names apart, the same coaches. Even comes in a very attractive matching yellow box...

[GWR-fan]

I had a similar issue with Robin with his book order.  I needed a lot of Peco pointwork and decided as a friend owned a model railway shop I would put business his way.  I placed my order and regularly asked as to the status of the order.  Always received the reply awaiting on the wharehouse to supply.  Believing it was an overall shortage for all stores I waited and waited and waited.   Almost six months to the day I finally decided it was now or never.  I confronted the shop owner and asked what was the issue.  He finally responded that before he could place my order he had to have a minimum size order to place with the supplier and as yet insufficient orders had been received.  He could have told me the real issue.  He would have lost multiple sales (which he eventually did) but at least he would have been honest.  An important lesson in life,  do not mix friendship with business.

 

Another issue with a model shop owner with whom I had spent a king's ransom on outdoor railway locomotives, rolling stock and track who continually stalled me on an important part that I needed pronto.  He stalled me for weeks saying that the item was not available.  I finally placed an order directly with the company in America and three days later the part was at my door.  The excuse by the shop owner was an untruth with the truth being that he did not have sufficient orders to place with the manufacturer and so my order was never processed.  I had placed a large order for rolling stock with the same shop and waited and waited.  I saw the same items discounted at a nearby shop, far less than the price that I had ordered the items for,  but out of a sense of loyalty I did not buy the discounted stock.  Several months later with no order fulfilled the shop owner admitted that he would not be fulfilling my order.  Over another issue I almost found myself in a legal issue with the store and advised that I was being sued for comments made on a forum as to the lack of performance of the store over warranty issues on an item not purchased in the store but work approved by the manufacturer of the goods who agreed in writing to compensate the store for any work carried out.  The items in question were worth several thousands of dollars.  Needless to say I never went back to the store.  

 

What I would consider my local store was once the biggest supplier of model railway items in Australia and even ventured into manufacturing quality locomotives and rolling stock.  Last time I went there several years ago the store did not even possess plastic solvent glue or even tins of black paint.  While in the store I heard a salesperson lamenting that the internet had drastically reduced their sales and that what was once the backbone of their sales was almost non-existent.  Their "OO" scale items were but a few old Hornby boxes.  I do commiserate with the store but reliable delivery is paramount and when an online supplier regularly performs then that store gets my business and apart from a few issues I continue to return online to that store for my sole source of model railway goods.  An item purchased on a Friday is in my hands the following Wednesday, half a world away.  My local post office cannot even get a package across my city in the same timeframe.

[AchimK]

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

And it only took Mallard another 109 years to add another 4.5 mph to that!   

 

Oh, it is now sooo tempting to start discussing the details and evidence of that number (126.5).

But I won't.

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Islesy said:

The thing is though Robin, Hornby haven’t just produced 1,500 units, that is just the Tri-ang Limited Edition for the Hornby 100 range. There’s another shipment due very soon that forms the main range edition, so there are more than enough to go round. Same locomotive, same figures, same tender and, names apart, the same coaches. Even comes in a very attractive matching yellow box...

 

Funny how a change of box colour and an arbitrary limit on numbers confers such greater inherent value!  

 

Presumably, though, those splashing out on the more expensive red coloured box will have to wait until the locomotives from the cheaper yellow boxes hit the beaches for a replacement?

 

I seem to have been fortunate in that my retailer prudently kept spares, which is how, I'm told, I'm able to receive a replacement red box set.  Of course, that's assuming the replacement works!  Others might not be so lucky.

[PaulRhB]

40 minutes ago, AchimK said:

 

Oh, it is now sooo tempting to start discussing the details and evidence of that number (126.5).

But I won't.

 it was just a quip based on the quoted typo . . .

 

Not everything needs to exercise the comfy cushions . .