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On 23/06/2020 at 22:37, Hroth said:

 

It'd be interesting if Hornby did do a collection of "Early Stephenson", boxed sets like the Rocket set, but perhaps even an approximation to Locomotions motion might be a step too far.

 

Perhaps a Planet, or a Planet Patentee might be more doable, the Rocket motor would fit nicely in their boilers, with the decoder in the slightly bigger tenders.  They could also use the Rocket coaches, or produce the open coaches and some goods stock.  Not Stephenson, and leaping a decade onwards, how about Lion?  They could include suitable nameplates so you could have Tiger too...

 

But first, R3810...

 

Just to inform that all these engines (Locomotion, Planet, Patentee & Lion) are available in N and 00 via https://www.shapeways.com/shops/newman-miniatures

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3 hours ago, SRman said:

Does anyone do a 4mm scale kit for the open-top style of passenger carriage that these early trains had for 3rd class passengers?

 

Building one this....if anyone has pictures and rough dimensions, we'd like to make a kit.

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1 hour ago, MGR Hooper! said:

 

Building one this....if anyone has pictures and rough dimensions, we'd like to make a kit.

 

4 hours ago, SRman said:

Does anyone do a 4mm scale kit for the open-top style of passenger carriage that these early trains had for 3rd class passengers?

 

Second Class.  No Third until 1844.

 

:D

 

IMG_6194_-_Copy.JPG

Edited by Edwardian
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4 hours ago, SRman said:

Does anyone do a 4mm scale kit for the open-top style of passenger carriage that these early trains had for 3rd class passengers?

 

There are pictures of one by PaulRhb a few pages further back in the thread

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On 23/06/2020 at 22:37, Hroth said:

 

It'd be interesting if Hornby did do a collection of "Early Stephenson", boxed sets like the Rocket set, but perhaps even an approximation to Locomotions motion might be a step too far.

 

Perhaps a Planet, or a Planet Patentee might be more doable, the Rocket motor would fit nicely in their boilers, with the decoder in the slightly bigger tenders.  They could also use the Rocket coaches, or produce the open coaches and some goods stock.  Not Stephenson, and leaping a decade onwards, how about Lion?  They could include suitable nameplates so you could have Tiger too...

 

But first, R3810...

 

L&M motive power had a number of distinct phases.  In the early to mid-1830s, the Stephensons held sway and motive power is dominated by 2 main types:

 

- The 0-2-2 Rocket type.  IIRC there are 7 or so of these.  They resemble the way Rocket herself had been rebuilt by the opening in 1830: Smokebox, firebox up to boiler height and motion set to a more horizontal position.  One of these, Northumbrian, was a rather beefier version. and .

 

87889725_Rocket183001.jpg.928bdc8cf02f49fb1091a26fdc92cfce.jpg

 

- The 2-2-0 Planet type, of which, again, I think there were about 7-8.

 

1264687906_Planet01.jpg.4294c6053ae1be66272416e77ddbc34a.jpg

 

In addition there were a couple of Stephenson 0-4-0s for working the inclines and the Patentee 2-2-2 of 1834.

 

There was also the odd non-Stephenson loco, for instance, there was at least one Bury haystack 0-4-0. 

 

In the late 1830s the Directors were much less wedded to the Stephensons and start buying more from elsewhere, e.g. the two Todd Kitson 0-4-2s.  In the 1840s until amalgamation, the L&M build their own locomotives.   

 

 

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The LMS replicas are Third Class and not related to the 1830s Rocket in the slightest. Apart from the replica might have pulled them on occasion.

 

The Second Class carriages had seats and later got a rudimentary roof. MOSI has a couple of vague replicas.

 

The Thirds were built in 1834 according to the NRM.

 

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co205826/replica-of-liverpool-manchester-railway-3rd-class-open-topped-railway-carriage-1930-replica-replica-railway-carriage

 

 

 

Jason

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57 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The LMS replicas are Third Class and not related to the 1830s Rocket in the slightest. Apart from the replica might have pulled them on occasion.

 

The Second Class carriages had seats and later got a rudimentary roof. MOSI has a couple of vague replicas.

 

The Thirds were built in 1834 according to the NRM.

 

https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co205826/replica-of-liverpool-manchester-railway-3rd-class-open-topped-railway-carriage-1930-replica-replica-railway-carriage

 

 

 

Jason

 

Only there were no third class services in 1834. 

 

A replica Rocket has, indeed, been seen with a blue coach, and so it is perfectly appropriate for this somewhat ahistorical assemblage.

 

The blue coaches were introduced as Seconds.  The colour, in fact, denoted Second Class. The Rails model will have seats.  The blue coaches were introduced as open and later had roofs added. By the time there was a third class service, all coaches would have been built with roofs, as, IIRC, was a statutory requirement by then. 

 

The replicas are clearly compromises. I have a feeling that the buffing arrangements, for example, might have been different from the arrangement at the opening of the line, and I have read that the First Class replicas were based upon a model that purports to represent an 1834 coach, Experience IIRC, so that might be where the 1834 reference crept in, as the chassis is clearly the same on both classes of replica coach.

 

But the Rails release is clearly in the spirit of the Hornby  set, and intended to complement it, which it no doubt will.

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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The point being that what Hornby (and now Rails, among others) are producing are models of the 20th century replicas, not models of what actually ran on the Liverpool & Manchester in its first few years. As I think others have pointed out, Rocket had changed from Rainhill condition by the opening day. (Iron Girder anyone?)

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The point being that what Hornby (and now Rails, among others) are producing are models of the 20th century replicas, not models of what actually ran on the Liverpool & Manchester in its first few years. As I think others have pointed out, Rocket had changed from Rainhill condition by the opening day. (Iron Girder anyone?)

But surely that’s more useful as not many will be running the rocket on a layout based upon L&M Railway early on, most will be running alongside contemporary stock on their present layouts......

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1 minute ago, boxbrownie said:

But surely that’s more useful as not many will be running the rocket on a layout based upon L&M Railway early on, most will be running alongside contemporary stock on their present layouts......

 

Exactly! Good for running alongside your new Hornby Coronation Scot set, or in an early-80s electrified setting!

 

The replica carriages were built for the centenary in 1930 and in photos of that period are usually seen with Lion, so that's perhaps the next step?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The point being that what Hornby (and now Rails, among others) are producing are models of the 20th century replicas, not models of what actually ran on the Liverpool & Manchester in its first few years. As I think others have pointed out, Rocket had changed from Rainhill condition by the opening day. (Iron Girder anyone?)

 

The replicas are based on an assessment of what Rocket looked like at the Rainhill trials. There are enough descriptions, and drawings, to give a reasonable degree of certainty when combined with the actual preserved Rocket in its later state. Although contemporary illustrations show that the production versions of the Rocket class were more like Rocket as preserved, we don't know for certain when Rocket itself was modified to be like its later siblings. So it's plausible enough that Rocket did run in service in unmodified form, at least for a while. At least, it's plausible enough that you don't need too much modeller's licence to use the model on a layout depicting the L&M.

 

Of course, if you're really hardcore, you could always modify the Hornby model so that it looks like a later Rocket :)

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1 minute ago, MarkSG said:

Of course, if you're really hardcore, you could always modify the Hornby model so that it looks like a later Rocket :)

 

... and the carriages so that they look like Thomas Clarke Worsdell's carriages of 1830. The replicas almost certainly have a longer wheelbase than the originals, for improved stability. A first class journey on the L&M in the early 30s must have been pretty rough, though better than the road journey.

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R3810 pack charged to my card and posted today from Rails. 

I pre-ordered one of Rails' forthcoming open carriages, because I don't know if Hornby might ever release them as an add-on pack.

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11 minutes ago, gc4946 said:

R3810 pack charged to my card and posted today from Rails. 

I pre-ordered one of Rails' forthcoming open carriages, because I don't know if Hornby might ever release them as an add-on pack.

the same for Me but i ordered 2 of the blue coaches

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First thing this morning (Oz time) I read the  email from Rails and jumped and pre-ordered one coach (tempted to get two but I don't know what the haulage power of Hornby's loco is like yet).

I did look at the Shapeways offering, but by the time they put in the price, added their commission and postage to Australia, the price had doubled, and it still has to be built and painted with extra parts supplied externally.

Thanks to all those who answered my query. :drink_mini:

I agree with comments above about many people (including me) who will really be running th Hornby model alongside more modern stock, rather than as an accurate period piece, although it would be tempting to build a small diorama to display the model separately between uses.

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Not that it’s any reason not to buy Rails’ excellent and timely announcement but were not early trains single class? Another reason for producing another early L&M loco: to have one to haul first class and one to haul second class trains.

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On 23/06/2020 at 22:37, Hroth said:

 

It'd be interesting if Hornby did do a collection of "Early Stephenson", boxed sets like the Rocket set, but perhaps even an approximation to Locomotions motion might be a step too far.

 

Perhaps a Planet, or a Planet Patentee might be more doable, the Rocket motor would fit nicely in their boilers, with the decoder in the slightly bigger tenders.  They could also use the Rocket coaches, or produce the open coaches and some goods stock.  Not Stephenson, and leaping a decade onwards, how about Lion?  They could include suitable nameplates so you could have Tiger too...

 

But first, R3810...

 

I think theres a race on as to who will next to Lion. You have the preserved example... but Titfield will be a massive selling point to. I think Hornby have the right idea. A special release limited edition set and then also a one done for general release. The challenge will be to fit DCC gubbins and have space for sound! It has been done on Rocket.... now its a case of Lion as the front runner for the next engine of this kind to follow. 

 

The other outsider is Locomotion No. 1 - but with the bi-centenary fast approaching.... 

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