New Hornby Rocket

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I got the Great Locomotives version (static), which I believe they scanned and reduced from the 7mm version that Bachmann produced for Kader's centenary. Unfortunately, they cocked it up and it came out more H0 than 00. It also had a chauldron wagon with it.

 

All the best

 

Merry Christmas

 

Ray

Seems they scanned the 7mm version and really did come up with a Half O gauge version…….was that a cock up? 

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Seems they scanned the 7mm version and really did come up with a Half O gauge version…….was that a cock up? 

 

I should think it was a pragmatic decision. The model would require considerable re-engineering to address the compromise of 00 gauge. Although I suppose as it was a static model it could have been issued at 4/7 the size of the Bachmann model.

[boxbrownie]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I should think it was a pragmatic decision. The model would require considerable re-engineering to address the compromise of 00 gauge. Although I suppose as it was a static model it could have been issued at 4/7 the size of the Bachmann model.

Exactly…..looking at some compromises made on actual running models, they did it correctly really.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I believe that the problem was the fact that so much of Locomotion is between the wheels.

 

OO would need the wheels to be closer together on the axles, making everything else “wrong”.

 

HO did away with that problem…

 

And yes, almost certainly a scaled down Bachmann static model…

[BernardTPM]

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I got the Great Locomotives version (static), which I believe they scanned and reduced from the 7mm version that Bachmann produced for Kader's centenary. Unfortunately, they cocked it up and it came out more H0 than 00. It also had a chauldron wagon with it.

 

3 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Seems they scanned the 7mm version and really did come up with a Half O gauge version…….was that a cock up? 

 

The Bachmann model was American 0 or 1:48, so when they halved that the result was a 1:96 scale model.

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, BernardTPM said:

 

 

The Bachmann model was American 0 or 1:48, so when they halved that the result was a 1:96 scale model.

Not only can they not speak the language………

[Pete47401]

On 29/12/2020 at 09:07, PaulRhB said:

It was more the initial crowing about selling them for more and what turned up on eBay for £30 each as a £90 bundle amidst the people struggling to find them that failed to impress. It appears to be linked to the 47401 project from the name? but as with other shops selling the set and coaches from trade at inflated profits from their factory stock hardly a way to create sympathy and support. 
It’s perfectly legal but if you’re prepared to vastly inflate prices and brag about it don’t expect people think ok I’ll support your project by paying an extra few quid by in the future. My local two shops get my support because they have deliberately not profiteered from the Pecketts and Rocket sets, even going as far as to swap stock to fulfil orders and holding stock back for regulars rather than cramming it on their eBay site. 
Ultimately they can feel smug to have made an extra £1.80 or so but a hollow win and one seller and project I’d avoid on principle as a result of the initial post. No one got hurt but one to think about before gloating in a thread about having stock to sell. 

 

Oh dear, only just seen this. Sorry, infrequent visitor.

 

Not really bragging, just yanking a few chains, worked too. So many people wanting for less than listed prices and the "wait until the price drops" gang were pretty tiresome. It was getting relentless, has been better recently though.

 

People are happy enough to take the bargains which we've offered plenty of, but some get all emotional and abusive if they think they might have to pay more. Yeah, in this case Rocket's coaches didn't go over RRP unlike the loco they were intended to accompany. You win some you lose some. Looks like Hush Hush was this year's Rocket! Did well with that, started at £220 and finished at £320 (no it wasn't us that sold the damaged one for £824), you need the occasional winner to make up for the not so good ones. Call it crowing if you want. 

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Pete47401 said:

Call it crowing if you want. 

Call it what it is…….profiteering.

 

[cctransuk]

20 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Call it what it is…….profiteering.

 

 

I have to confess to a certain ambivalence here.

 

Has anyone, or does anyone know of someone who has insisted on paying the RRP for an item offered at a reduced price due to slow moving stock?

 

Anticipating a negative response, why should we get agitated if a retailer finds themself having a small number of items that are in short supply, and therefore decides to sell them above RRP?

 

In the seasonal vein - sauce, goose and gander spring to mind!

 

Season's greetings!

John Isherwood.

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

I have to confess to a certain ambivalence here.

 

Has anyone, or does anyone know of someone who has insisted on paying the RRP for an item offered at a reduced price due to slow moving stock?

 

Anticipating a negative response, why should we get agitated if a retailer finds themself having a small number of items that are in short supply, and therefore decides to sell them above RRP?

 

In the seasonal vein - sauce, goose and gander spring to mind!

 

Season's greetings!

John Isherwood.

No reason at all we have to buy them, it was just the slight “off” tone of the post.

 

Ho Ho Ho John 

[SamThomas]

On 08/01/2020 at 23:13, Denbridge said:

 I've given up on those who throw tantrums if they can't get all their carriages in exactly the same shades, particularly when it comes to roof colour!

Apart from MU's I actually try to get rakes of coaches with slightly different colours & expecially the roof's. I model European where carriages still get swopped around so it tends to vary due to age & weathering of the paintwork.

Edited December 24, 2021 by SamThomas

[adb968008]

22 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Call it what it is…….profiteering.

 

With the money going to a good cause.

 

I don't see the 47401 gang going on a Caribbean adventure off the profits, but if it contributes to a coat of paint back to its 1980’s Transpennine days i’d be favourable.

 

Remember those looking after a loco are volunteers looking after a loco, not necessarily trained in the art of PR, Spin and sales to maximise revenue and return off a job lot of model locos.

 

its christmas, live and let live, this arguments about last years model.

 

 

[PaulRhB]

The post quoted quite clearly said it was the way it was said not the end recipient of the money. 
 

On 24/12/2021 at 01:52, Pete47401 said:

just yanking a few chains, worked too.

When you’re trying to get support for a project yanking peoples chain isn’t the best way to get wider support  
It would have been better couched as, these are now sought after and we fortunately have some stock so will be selling at this price to include extra support for the restoration of the loco. 
 

Just a bit of ‘headology’ and while yanking peoples chain may be fun and amusing amongst friends it’s not a great way to gather more support from strangers, It just came across as rather crass that was all 

 

 

[boxbrownie]

59 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The post quoted quite clearly said it was the way it was said not the end recipient of the money. 
 

When you’re trying to get support for a project yanking peoples chain isn’t the best way to get wider support  
It would have been better couched as, these are now sought after and we fortunately have some stock so will be selling at this price to include extra support for the restoration of the loco. 
 

Just a bit of ‘headology’ and while yanking peoples chain may be fun and amusing amongst friends it’s not a great way to gather more support from strangers, It just came across as rather crass that was all 

 

 

It did indeed, and there was no mention of the “profits” going to a good cause, had I known I might have changed my verdict from profiteering to taking advantage of the situation. 

[Otis JB]

I'm glad we're still seeing a good influx of 'Rocket stock' but anything over £50 for three is ridiculous - £25 a piece at RRP! I'm particularly excited for the coal wagons but I think I'll wait for the retailers. I have been making my own chaldrons and L&M flatbeds and it not only makes such wagons affordable, its a much more satisfying and realistic result at the end of the process. I hope these new prices will usher in a new wave of scratch and kit building and modifying old stock. If you can't or won't buy it - build it! 

[jivebunny]

4 hours ago, Otis JB said:

Anything over £50 for three is ridiculous - £25 a piece at RRP! 

 

I'm assuming you're talking about the L&MR coal wagons, which at £77 for three very small four-wheeled open wagons does indeed seem like a massive rip-off....

[Otis JB]

2 minutes ago, jivebunny said:

 

I'm assuming you're talking about the L&MR coal wagons, which at £77 for three very small four-wheeled open wagons does indeed seem like a massive rip-off....

I was indeed but if I am not mistaken every L&M wagon set was that price.

[Otis JB]

I have just found out thanks to the wonderful Anthony Dawson on Twitter, that the 'new' coal wagons are just reliveries of the Rocket tender. So not new and entirely made up. Terrible.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Otis JB

[Dana Ashdown]

8 minutes ago, Otis JB said:

I have just found out thanks to the wonderful Anthony Dawson on Twitter, that the 'new' coal wagons are just reliveries of the Rocket tender. So not new and entirely made up. Terrible.

That's true. Here's the Rocket tender and a coal wagon.

 

 

 

In Hornby's defence, I believe that Rocket's tender was actually a wagon adapted for a tender. So now Hornby have done the reverse.

 

Personally, I think the coal wagons look far more appropriate that the horse and sheep wagons. That said, I would have expected to see Lion released with three or six coal wagons... not something tied to a movie with carriages I don't want.

[Dana Ashdown]

Eliminated duplicate post!!!

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dana Ashdown
Duplicate post

[jivebunny]

13 hours ago, Otis JB said:

the 'new' coal wagons are just reliveries of the Rocket tender

 

I'm embarrassed that none of us noticed that 

[drmditch]

15 hours ago, Otis JB said:

I have just found out thanks to the wonderful Anthony Dawson on Twitter, that the 'new' coal wagons are just reliveries of the Rocket tender. So not new and entirely made up. Terrible.

I don't use Twitter, but have read several of Mr Dawson's books.

Did he also point out that the tenders for the Rainhill Trials (for Rocket and Sans Pareil) were provided by the L&M company and built by one Nathaniel Worsdell?

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Nathaniel Worsdell

 

The world's first Carriage & Wagon Superintendent, at the L&M's Crown Street Works and designer of the first purpose-built passenger carriages, after dinner with George Stephenson, in 1828. There's an excellent book: G. Hill, The Worsdells a Quaker Engineering Dynasty (Transport Publishing Company, 1991). As to wagons, that reports: "The Crown Street works also produced a variety of wagons for goods traffic. Open platform trucks were used for cotton bales and other goods and pairs of such vehicles employing an early form of articulation were used for timber traffic. Pigs were carried in open six-slatted wagons and two-tiered vehicles with vertical wooden bars for the carriage of sheep were ordered from contractors were ordered from contractors in 1832" [One wonders how much of that description is derived from, rather than confirmed by, the Ackermann prints, which clearly Hornby's designers have studied. Link is to the second edition, 1833; the pair of timber trucks first appear in the third, 1834 edition. The first edition was published in 1831. There are significant difference in all four trains between the three editions.] Hill goes on: "Large numbers of coal and goods wagons were built or acquired by the company leaving aside the large variety of privately owned vehicles which operated on the line." He notes a stock of 300 wagons by May 1931 increased to 430 by 1835; initially designed and built at Crown Street but from 1833 increasingly by contractors.

 

So the Hornby wagons, whilst fanciful (or speculative, if you prefer) in detail are at least representative of known prototypes. The coal wagon is not so far off some of the early L&B and B&G wagons by 5&9 - and I think we can assume Chris Cox knows his stuff.

 

Nathaniel Worsdell in his way as influential to the development of British railways as the Stephensons and locomotives of his grandsons' design were the last survivors of main line steam in the North East of England - as a family, spanning 138 years of British railways.

[PaulRhB]

Yes the coal wagon is likely more accurate than the sheep and flat wagons which are based on the 1930 coach recreations  The tenders were supplied by the L&M and engravings support them looking like the standard coal wagon. You could also put benches and passengers in them to recreate the demonstration trains they ran with Rocket before the opening of the L&M to see the works that feature in one of the engravings. The picture is reproduced in several books and can be found on p 24 of ‘The Engineering and History of Rocket’ NRM. 
 

[Dana Ashdown]

A few notes from Francis Whishaw regarding Liverpool & Manchester wagons that may be helpful:

 

“The dimensions of a horse-box are as follows: length, including buffers, 12 feet 3-1/2 inches; length of the box 9-1/2 feet, width 7 feet 7 inches, height 7 feet 5inches. The side-flaps, which are hung vertically, are in two heights, the lower one being 3 feet 6 inches wide, framed with four vertical outside ledges. The under side of soles is 20 inches above the level of rails. The wheels are of 3 feet diameter, and the distance between centre and centre of axles 5 feet. One pair is of wood, and the other of cast iron with wrought tires.”

(Francis Whishaw, The Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, London, 1842 (2nd Edition), page 204)

 

“Mr. Hulton's coke-wagons, which pass frequently on this line, average each 2 tons net weight, and carry 4 tons of coke. The wheels are of cast iron and 3 feet in diameter, with outside bearings; the axles being of 33inches diameter.

“Some of the wooden coal-wagons which we found at the Manchester coal-depôt are 10 feet in length, 3 feet 9 inches wide, and 1 foot high. The bottom is 1-1/2 inches, and the sides are 1-7/8 inches thick. The wheels are of cast iron, 3 feet diameter, and 4 feet 8 inches from centre to centre of axles.

“The gross weight of one of these wagons is 5 tons 17 cwt. 2qrs. There is a flat iron draw-bar running underneath the bottom from end to end; and each wagon is furnished with three stout draw-chains.”

(Francis Whishaw, The Railways of Great Britain and Ireland, London, 1842 (2nd Edition), page 205)

Edited January 15, 2022 by Dana Ashdown