New Hornby Rocket

[Alan thompson]

49 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Rather a shame shops are also doing it . . . 

 

 

I think this is very unfair to criticise. This is a limited run item. It has been under produced and over sold so this is going to drive prices high. I personally think its a good thing. It creates excitement. Personally I got up early and raced to my locol shop to make sure I got mine whatever the cost. And I will do the same again for the smokey Joe. 

 

I want my models to demand a good price, OK if your buying its annoying but if its going to retain value we won't complain when we sell it in the future will we.

What about all the people who sell older items at an auction and make a nice profit? Do we have a go at them for doing so? I don't think so? 

 

Anyway if people want a cheaper version the is another one to be released without the triang box. 

 

At work today we have just had to pay over £269 for hand sanitizer that would normally cost us about £100 this is because of the current market and corona virus the NHS are retaining all stock leaving nothing for the retail market. This is just life and I won't be shaming them for doing so. 

 

I say good luck to our dealers if they can make a bit of profit to help them sustain their business then go for it because I want our model shops to exist on the high street and not turn into Internet sellers like has happened in so many other industries. 

 

Just my thoughts look forward to getting bashed now for going against the trend. 

 

 

 

 

[WisTramwayMan]

1 hour ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Lucky you. I got this:

 

Good afternoon,

We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809). This means that we are oversold on this product and regrettably have had to cancel your order. We are unable to source any further stock at the moment, due to the model being sold out with the supplier. 

We would like to take this opportunity to apologise for any inconvenience and disappointment this may cause. 

Your order has been cancelled so no payment will be taken and there is nothing required from your end. This will not affect any other orders or outstanding pre-orders you currently have with us.

Kind regards,

Hattons Model Railways 

 

Emotiveless summary:

 

Order was placed in early January with Hattons - could have been Kernow, Derails, Rails of Sheffield but went with Hattons, who I've used for many years. Order was confirmed and accepted.

 

At the nub of it is - and this is in writing from Hattons and verbally from Hornby Customer Services:

 

Hattons - we didn't get what we were supposed to. Hornby - yes you did.

 

So the dispute is over the amount that it was confirmed to Hattons they would receive. At least, on the face of it.

 

Update - from Hattons:

 

Did Hattons receive their full allocation of Hornby R3809?

Yes. Every retailer had an initial allocation of models available to them, whether they accepted the full amount was up to the retailer. We also later placed an additional order for further R3809 sets. Ultimately these models have proved extremely popular not only with ourselves but Hornby and other retailers as well and it was not possible to secure this additional order.

 

So - end of story it would appear - order was placed on 8/1 - Hattons oversold their confirmed allocation and took further orders versus a hoped for further allocation that was never confirmed to them or materialised. A lesson for the future.

[JSpencer]

9 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

So - end of story it would appear - order was placed on 8/1 - Hattons oversold their confirmed allocation and took further orders versus a hoped for further allocation that was never confirmed to them or materialised. A lesson for the future.

 

 

The lesson isn't particulary new, it has always been their for retailers (I can remember stories for Wrenn and Lima limited editions). Ultimately it is Hornby who could not have profitted enough from the popularity of the model. A known weakness of their strategy which they refuse to change.

[Coppercap]

On 23/02/2020 at 09:30, Robin Brasher said:

 

I did not receive a brown card cover for the red box but I bought it from the Swanage Station shop so perhaps the cardboard cover is for mail orders.

 

I collected my R3809 pack today (from Derails), and it was presented to me within an unopened card outer box (which had a little R3809 sticker on it).

Unusually, they hadn't tested it, or even opened both boxes to check it, on the grounds that most owners models will never ever be run, let alone taken out of the box, and those owners will want to receive them 'untouched' (and/or undamaged, as the packaging is very 'secure'!). They did offer to test it while I was there though.

Mine will get occasional use though and running trials will commence tomorrow!

Edited February 27, 2020 by Coppercap

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, AGR Model Store said:

 

All got to try and make living.

This just so happens to be the one product a year that seems to go mental prices, only doing what 99% of rest of RMWEB would do.

 

We've already had phone calls abusing staff about this & the price, seems a shame really the lengths people are going to.

Abuse isn’t acceptable for these toys,  I’m sorry to hear the gutter level some sink to but I feel it’s fair comment in this thread when some of are still waiting for retailers to send them and others have been told theirs over ordered so they’ve missed out, at the end of the day you can leave it but it’s just fueling these ridiculous collector prices.

You'd probably have been better off listing on a private account than one with your logo. I understand time’s are hard for all retail but I’d pick you up on 99% of people would as I know many on here who’ve sold on supposedly rare models to other members without asking mega prices  

I sold on some of my SWT 159 fleet for far less than the eBay rates too, just what I paid for them and there’s some very happy colleagues whose kids have Mum or Dads train , that’s my choice and I don’t make my living from it so fair do’s.

I’m sure it’s a difficult decision when there are so many on eBay at double the sale price. 
I bought one, due tomorrow, as I went to Rainhill 150 and have the Triang and 3.5inch models so it’s not an investment it’s one of my favourite models. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by PaulRhB

[grandadbob]

Well I got the following about an hour ago:

 

Hattons Model Railways - Order number: IOPA4766561 - Order manually cancelled by Vicki Ramaya

notify@hattons.co.uk

17:54 (1 hour ago)

 

This is an automatic notification to inform you that order number IOPA4766561 has been cancelled from our systems, and we will not attempt to process this again.

The following items were in your order:
"1 * Hornby R3809 Stephenson's Rocket 0-2-2 train pack with three Liverpool and Manchester Railway 4 wheel coaches - Hornby Centenary limited edition - Sold out on Pre Order @ £189.99 each http://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail.aspx?SID=513716

1 * Hornby R7150 Standard 6 pin Decoder @ £23.50 each http://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail.aspx?SID=430475

1 * Services and Sundries SrvDCCFitStandard01 Fit one 6, 8, 18 or 21 pin decoder into a single DCC Ready item @ £12.00 each http://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail.aspx?SID=62566


Reasons for cancellation include:

Duplication of order on system
Non-processing of card payment
Customer request to cancel order

If you still wish to order these items, you will need to place another order via our websites or over the telephone.

Regards

Hatton's Model Railways
17 Montague Road
Widnes
WA8 8FZ
0151 733 3655
http://www.hattons.co.uk
Telephone lines manned Monday - Saturday 7:30am - 6pm Sun 9am-5pm
Store open Monday - Sunday 9am - 5pm

 

This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

 

 

 

I must admit that I was late to the party and only ordered earlier this month but at least they could have said sorry instead of this rather brusque email.

 

 

[WisTramwayMan]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

The lesson isn't particulary new, it has always been their for retailers (I can remember stories for Wrenn and Lima limited editions). Ultimately it is Hornby who could not have profitted enough from the popularity of the model. A known weakness of their strategy which they refuse to change.

The shame is - and wouldn't have resulted in annoyed customers - that they didn't draw the line on confirming and accepting orders once the confirmed allocation had been reached and then invited "expressions of interest" (I thing the phrase is) which would be followed up in order should any further stock be realised. Totally fair, no annoyed customers, everyone knows where they stand. How it's been done it's the customer that loses out.

[Nile]

2 hours ago, Stanley Melrose said:

Anyone looked at the feasibility of converting the loco and coaches to P4?

 

Stan

FYI:

Loco front axle diameter = 2mm , rear axle = 1.5mm

Tender - distance between axleguards = 21.5mm

Coach -        "            "               "          = 21.3mm

 

more

 

The coach wheels are on 24.1mm axles.

Edited February 27, 2020 by Nile
more info.

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Rocket limited edition is easy.. change the carriage names.

Which is exactly what they've done. R3810 has different carriage names to R3809.

[PaulRhB]

Ultimately I’m glad Hornby didn’t stick a daft price on the normal set but was surprised the collectors set was only £10 more so that’s what I went for. If they asked £50+ more I’d have left it to the hardened collectors and gone with the less fancy box. I think that’s good of Hornby to be honest but there’s obviously an issue with communication somewhere as some have been disappointed and I know most small shops seem to have been only allocated a couple of the special sets. My local was getting orders on announcement day but had to give the caveat of I don’t know how many I’m getting until next week. Fortunately he got the Triang set for the one who was dead set on it, the others settled for the standard one. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by PaulRhB

[andyman7]

I've no problem if they do another Tri-ang edition - it doesn't have to be a re-issue, for example they could the loco + 1 coach in the manner of the original R346 version of 1963. Limted Edition certificates are pretty decorations but have no effect on the future collectability of a model railway loco - what dictates desirability is supply versus demand. There are plenty of 1990s certificated Hornby models cluttering up dealer shelves and auctions with absouletly no premium attached, whilst many 'regular' issue models over the years have attained collectable status because there is a ready market for any example that turns up for sale.
I originally tried to order the 'Triang' Rocket set from my regular dealer but he could not promise supply, so I pre-ordered from Hattons. Then my regular chap got one in, so I cancelled the Hattons one knowing that there would likely be a shortage. I'll never know whether I cancelled a phantom order or whether it genuinely enabled someone else to get one, but I hope it is the latter.

[Butler Henderson]

2 hours ago, Coppercap said:

 

I collected my R3809 pack today (from Derails), and it was presented to me within an unopened card outer box (which had a little R3809 sticker on it).

Unusually, they hadn't tested it, or even opened both boxes to check it, on the grounds that most owners models will never ever be run, let alone taken out of the box, and those owners will want to receive them 'untouched' (and/or undamaged, as the packaging is very 'secure'!). They did offer to test it while I was there though.

Mine will get occasional use though and running trials will commence tomorrow!

Flipping  Collectors - maybe they ought to do special Sealed Boxed Collectors edition and make stacks of money by only having them visible but unremovable, painted on one side and leave out the motor and its associated bits while charging £££ more for it but adding a self destruction mechanism if anyone does try to open  it.

[eldomtom2]

1 hour ago, andyman7 said:

I've no problem if they do another Tri-ang edition - it doesn't have to be a re-issue, for example they could the loco + 1 coach in the manner of the original R346 version of 1963.

They could very do that, but absent the centenary celebrations I'd imagine it'd be branded as Hornby.

[7APT7]

Hi WisTramwayMan

Hatton's have done it again... sadly, they have not learnt from previous mistakes, which just makes me wonder, how other do they do this to... when you have Pre-Orders...

 

You pre-order, in order to make sure they have some kind of guarantee of having the Item you want, is not a pre-order guaranteeing you of the item on order, (Obviously not) Hatton's done exactly the same to me, on the RHTT after being on pre-order for well over a year.  I rang to speak to Hatton's the week before they arrived in stock, as I knew I was away from the date on the email the week before I went away, so rang them beforehand to notify them, not to send the item out until after 16th... Hatton's said... Yes, that is OK, your order will be safe, and a note had been put on your file, to say not to release until the date I stated.  When I got back two days earlier than I stated to Hatton's, I was going through my emails, when I read a very similar email to WisTramwayMan saying we don't have one in stock to fulfil your Pre-Order as we have sold them all. 

 

I was like... eh, what.... I have now lost all confidence in Hatton's since then, and a reputation is far easier to loose than to gain back, so for my own Hornby Rocket, I have ordered off another well known shop.  I would have thought Hatton's would have learnt their lesson from the RHTT thinking it's a one off thing, but seems they are still repeating their same mistakes, over and over...! Surely it is better to under estimate and over deliver, from any manufacturer like Hornby, in hope you can please twice as many when the orders arrives from the manufacturer.  Hatton's need to review the way they do Pre-Orders, learn from your mistakes, not repeat them over again and again.

 

It is bad for the WisTramwayMan to miss out on the Rocket, and I feel greatly for WisTramwayMan more so... when Hatton's have done it already before to me, and is this just becoming another statistic of Hatton's regularly making the same mistakes, over promising and under delivering,  I think It's worse that Hatton's do not listen to customer feedback, however long since the RHTT was released till now with the Hornby Rocket Pack.  Shop elsewhere in the future learn from your own mistake and mine, is the only advise I can give...

I really hope, you get your hands on a Rocket WisTramwayMa.

 

Regards

Jamie

[GoingUnderground]

If retailers took orders greater than their initial allocation, then I have absolutely no sympathy for them.  I have every sympathy for folks who placed orders with them in good faith and were so badly let down.  I'm just glad that I ordered direct from Hornby.

 

Should Hornby rerun the limited edition? In my opinion, No, they shouldn't. Not because I was one of the lucky ones who did get their Rocket Limited Edition, but if they did, it would undermine their credibility. What they could do is to run a second limited edition in Triang Railways packaging, but with different coach names to the limited edition  R3809, and to the 3 coaches in the R3810 edition. Or, even create a different L&M Rly loco to go with the  alternative coach names. But they need to be careful. What made the limited edition so special was the Triang Railways packaging and teh fac tat it echoed the Triang 1960s model. Produce too many Triang limited editions and they will devalue the idea. How many limited editions can the market bear?

[eldomtom2]

I am getting rather baffled over the obsession with the Tri-ang edition. All you're getting compared to the standard version is a different box and coach names.

Edited February 27, 2020 by eldomtom2

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

Sad to read that people have not received R3809, I didn't even keep one for myself.

 

However I was unable to travel to Margate due to a back injury in January. Instead sat at home in my comfy chair and kept on refreshing RM Web. Then courtesy of Andy Y, the new Hornby items appeared. Ooh, we'll have some of them and them and ooh them as well. Scribled R numbers turned into a hasty email, all sent of to our rep by about 9.20am. Sitting smuggly thinking ,,,,, We had to have our orders in first as those in Margate would still be drinking coffee and dining on bacon sandwiches. Nearly fell off my chair when the dreadful news came in. Certain items had been allocated. Drat and double drat, we hadn't even been allocated some loco's. But we had to accept that it had been done fairly and proportionally. Nevertheless we knew exactly what we were getting and they went on as an announcement on our Facebook page. First in got what they wanted. Then we started a reserve list in case anybody decided after their euphoric phone call that they actually didn't want item a, b or x.

 

R3809 is the first of Hornby's announcements that has gone viral on Ebay. I suspect more new arrivals will go the same way. 1500 units will not go a long way, Hornby website, the Hornby wholesaler, national accounts and retailers. Break that down and if every Hornby retailer who had supported Hornby was allocated one then that IS fair. I hope the retailers who's last invoice but has a Hornby account was for £3 4s and 6d didn't get one. I suspect that would be the case.

 

Only going to mention one Retailer who had items on Pre-order, long after they were all pre-ordered. When you tried to add R3809, the wording changed to something like "Sold Out On Pre-Order, No Further Orders can be Taken". Well done to Rails.

 

I do hope that the members on here are able to secure R3809 at no more than the RRP. There must be retailers like ourselves who are overlooked for Hornby Products.

 

Am I bitter? Maybe a little, I was on duty at the Rainhill Trials in 1979. At that time being 22/23 I thought it was a big murder trial or maybe even sheep dogs. But I did help to get Rockets wheel repaired overnight and ready for the next day. But that is another story.  So should I be bitter? nah, could have kept one but customers come first.

 

Finally in the lithographs, paintings depicted in here. How clever were the engineers of the day? They drove a railway line under bridges. Road over Rail bridges, now that was forward planning!

 

On a clear day, I can see Rainhill, also the location of our second favourite restaurant. I will be getting R3810 for myself.

[jcredfer]

I do remember Hornby saying that they had allocated numbers of the available models to each shop, dependant upon their Hornby sales record...  and this was to be decided by the Reps.  That number was to be communicated to the shops concerned and any model allocation turned down by any shop would be made available when known.  It was also made very clear that there would be no additional availability, beyond what was stated.  

 

Taking orders beyond a shop allocation, without informing the customer{s} of the circumstances, would seem to be questionable.  In the event, that policy meant that potential customers were expecting that their order would be honoured and did not look to place an order elsewhere, or, perhaps, place an order for the R3810.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if a deal was forged with the rogue traders, now selling for highly inflated prices, to buy total available models, at less than advertised, but discounted for rapid and complete stock sale.  These could then be sold, at the original price tag, to fulfil the pre-order the potential customers thought they had made.  What a wonderful gesture that would be, how happy that would make those customers and what a wonderful advert for the shop {at less cost than most advertising, too}.

 

Julian

We all make mistakes, what is important is what we do when we discover that we have made an error.

 

[PaulRhB]

It sets a slightly concerning precedent though when shops put their allocation on eBay, is that spare stock or all their allocation? Will we next see more putting all their stock of special editions on at inflated prices above rrp? I understand making a living but ultimately if this becomes ‘a thing’ I’ll stop ordering from them and go straight to the manufacturer then some will start moaning no one uses their local  

Edited February 27, 2020 by PaulRhB

[Clearwater]

From my count, there’s 13 listings on ebay at present.  Some of those may well hold multiple R3809s but I doubt there’s more than 30 or 40 in total on ebay.  Out of a run of 1,500 so a pretty small percentage albeit quite a visible one.  The debate strikes me as not dissimilar to the one about West End shows where touts buy up tickets and sell at a premium.

 

If i was Hornby, I might be pleased that I’ve completely sold down on a new tooling with no discounting.  Presumably good for their cash flow and net margins (and let’s not forget that unless Hornby is financially successful, we won’t be having this debate....) I might also be wondering have I underpriced slightly, could I have got an extra tenner per unit? Maybe.  Maybe I’m also thinking that a degree of unsatisfied demand is a good thing.  Firstly, will it encourage more preorders of other runs, push waverers into committing for the W1 purchase or whatever and do away with those who think they can second guess and wait for what was once an inevitable steep discounting of unsold stock.  Secondly, will it help sales of the R3810 - again I suspect so.

 

For me, I’m happy with my purchase.  Somehow, my certificate is numbered 003 - I’m not sure that makes any rationale difference but I’m disproportionately pleased by its number!

 

 

[melmerby]

Limited Edition.

If Hornby has made 1000 (or 1500 or whatever) and included a numbered  certificate of authenticity at a premium price, then surely they could make a further 1000, 2000 or whatever without a certificate at normal price for the "non collectors" who would like the set.

 

SWMBO bought a limited edition set of prints by an Artist (Judy Boyes) which are signed & numbered, but you can still buy exactly the same, unsigned/unnumbered.

Edited February 27, 2020 by melmerby

[PaulRhB]

Ceases to be a limited edition then though and incurs others wrath  The standard set is available, to be honest if Hattons had contacted people in the same email and said sorry but we can only supply this instead rather than an email just cancelling it it might be less emotive. I’ve had this same thing happen in the past and it is annoying as you then scrabble around trying to find one months later.
If Hattons expected a second tranche then they surely talk to Hornby regularly and should have had more warning which would let people search out the others sooner. Hopefully they will take this on board.

It is getting hard to guarantee getting stuff so I banged in my order in the first hour as I suspected my local would only get one or two and indeed he did. I have ordered the Hush Hush instead from him but I don’t expect this kind of scrum on that so as he tends to get them a while after others on some things I don’t have to worry in case what happened with the first Peckett happens again. 
I’m happy to get the less common named coaches too but I do intend building a couple more locos so extra names will be more useful when I add a standard set later. I’d have been disappointed too but then ordered an extra std set and set about making transfers for more names. 

[John ks]

I was a bit slow deciding that I wanted a Rocket & was only interested in the red box edition 

Placed my order with Hattons & just got 2 emails, one saying "We have received less stock than expected for Hornby's new Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack (R3809)" & the other headed "Hattons Model Railways - Order number: IOPA4742557 - Order manually cancelled by Vicki Ramaya"

 

"Not happy Jan"

 

John

[eldomtom2]

30 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

The standard set is available, to be honest if Hattons had contacted people in the same email and said sorry but we can only supply this instead rather than an email just cancelling it it might be less emotive. I’ve had this same thing happen in the past and it is annoying as you then scrabble around trying to find one months later.

Unfortunately for that idea Hattons have sold out their preorder stock of R3810 as well.

[7APT7]

36 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Hattons had contacted people in the same email and said sorry but we can only supply this instead rather than an email just cancelling it it might be less emotive. I’ve had this same thing happen in the past and it is annoying as you then scrabble around trying to find one months later.

 

Hi Paul

 

I totally know where you are coming from, on that. My RHTT, I had to by off eBay, and lucky only £12 more than the Hatton's price, but even so, I had it on Pre-Order for over a year, and I even notified them and they put a note on my file the week before they came in to stock, in to Hatton's... I don't thing Pre-Order guarantees you nothing today, well certainly from Hatton's, regardless of any Pre-Order, Hatton's are just interested in SALES, SALES and SALES, First come First Served, don't worry about the Pre-Orders... Crazy logic... No customer care whatsoever...!

 

Jamie