New Hornby Rocket

[aaron3820]

The last few pages really reminds me of how much English modellers are spoilt for choice, and pay next to nothing for it when compared to some markets (such as the Australian market). 

Edited December 10, 2020 by aaron3820

[MarkSG]

Pricing strategy is something that is half science and half art, and both halves tend to be misunderstood by people not familiar with them.

 

Taking the science part first, while it is true that lower prices increase demand while higher prices reduce demand, the most important thing to bear in mind that the goal of any seller is not to maximise unit sales, or even to maximise revenue, but to maximise profit.

 

Take, for example, a thing that costs £10 to make (or buy wholesale, or whatever), and you sell it at £15. (These are entirely invented figures for the purpose of illustration, they're in the right ballpark for a model but the precise figures will be a fairly guarded secret). If you sell 1,000 of them then you've made £5,000. But if you increase the price to, say, £20, then that's a 25% increase in retail price, but a 100% increase in profit. So you only need to sell 501 of them at the higher price - that is, just over half as many as at the lower price - to make more money overall. Equally, if you cut the price to £12.50, you've reduced the retail price by 16.67% but you've cut your profit in half. So you need to sell twice as many at the lower price to get the same income.

 

Obviously, though, if you increase the price too much then your sales will eventually dwindle to zero as nobody will buy them. So there's a sweet spot between a price that's too low, meaning you don't make enough profit, and one that's too high, meaning you don't make enough sales.

 

Finding that sweet spot relies on the application of some fairly complex calculations that, to be accurate, need to be based on historical sales data and other statistical information gleaned from other sources. And the curve is rarely simple, with a single, obvious "best" price, not least because the availability and price of competing products also feeds into the mix. Rather, the maths will generally give you a range of prices, from one below which it isn't worth selling the product to one above which it isn't worth making it. Somewhere between those two extremes is where your ideal RRP sits, and that's where the art side of things comes into it. 

 

Lower prices, particularly for entry-level buyers, can help expand your customer base as they attract people who might not previously have been part of your market. And those people may then go on to buy other products, thus increasing sales and revenue. But low prices can also create an expectation among buyers that will not be fulfilled if other products cannot, mathematically, be priced that low. And that can have the opposite effect of putting people off and reducing your customer base. On the other hand, a higher price can affect people's perception of value, and nudge them towards being willing to spend more money on other items as well. All of which bodes well for your bottom line. But, equally, higher prices can also drive away customers who may simply buy less, or leave your market altogether. That's a particular issue for something like hobby products, which are a discretionary purchase, where customers may simply give up on the hobby if they don't feel they can afford it. 

 

Psychology plays a big part in the art of pricing. It's been demonstrated over and over again that splitting a range into "budget", "regular" and "premium" increases overall revenue, and so does having a pricing strategy which allows for different prices at different times and targetted at different customers. But it all has to fit within the mathematical framework of the demand curve, and sometimes those two aspects of pricing can be in conflict. If you've ever sat in a boardroom with the data analysts on one side and the marketing team on the other trying to reach an agreement on your pricing strategy, then you'll know precisely what I mean. But for most people, pricing strategy can give the appearance of being a very dark art indeed.

Edited December 10, 2020 by MarkSG
Fix typo

[PaulRhB]

Hornby released these early in response to the Rails one at £29.99, that was their benchmark price they didn’t get caught out. They decided to respond with the rrp of 57% of that so if they were in anyway unsure of profit they had a wide margin to play with on strategy  

So on the basis of that I’ll say thanks to Hornby although I still think they need to seriously think about their allocations vs orders system and tell shops straight away they won’t get what they ordered not the week of release, that then supports the eBay speculators. If people had 4/5 months to search out shops who still had allocation we wouldn’t see people who’ve had their order cancelled with a week to go panic and pay £30 giving away that £13 to chancers which Hornby could have invested in models if that’s what ‘it’s really worth’. Some shops may have over ordered as Dan said, because of experience, but the sensible ones as he notes didn’t sell all the order as he didn’t expect to get them all. Hornby took those orders and didn’t allocate the actual number until late in the day so they fuelled this speculation and lost out on that free market wet dream some like   

 

[stewartingram]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Speaking inretrospec is hardly “turning it”. its already happened.

 

your misinterpreting me...if I were the investment banker, I wouldn't be the one complaining about whats going on.
 

If Your against Hornby making a profit, then who do you think should get it ? The consumer or the retailer ?

 

But people are paying, willingly, way above rrp, for a product that is widely available to buy.
 

 

 

The "ebay principle".

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Hornby took those orders and didn’t allocate the actual number until late in the day so they fuelled this speculation and lost out on that free market wet dream some like   

 

You are misquoting me twice, saying things I did not infer and are now resorting to be insulting.

please stop.

 

I maintain my opinion that Hornby priced it wrong, I respect your position about not wanting Hornby to go like LGB, without insulting you, so be a man and not a boy, do the same.

 

As MarkSG says, businesses exist to make profit. You would be surprised at eye watering margins on some items, and equally amazed why they even bother on others. But one offsets the other. Businesses only make profit on two simple actions.. Reducing Expenses and Increasing Revenue.. everything relates to one or the other. A business that doesnt seek to maximise revenue and minimise expenses isn’t optimal.

 

I’m sorry you object to higher prices, but i think Hornby is underpriced, I know thats a war cry to some, but when I see something and think thats cheap, and its a new release, then its odd. Dapols mogul I think the same. But equally, Buy it now as future prices are higher is at odds with a fashion item that quickly goes out of fashion... no one pays more for an out of date ipad.

 

I do think Hornby (and the wider hobby) needs to change the cycle of 

 

Loop
    New model = R——

    1st run, gold dust.

    2nd run, discounted everywhere.

Repeat

 

Imho a better way would be like consumer electronics, rather than non-consumable toys.

Front loading profit/ pricing release 1, and subsequently lowering the price following.

it preserves margin across the board, and is more inline with how consumers behave in the hobby anyway.

 

so in this case an example could be..

R1 could have been a 3 pack at £99.99

R2 could have been £16.99 for as long as the market could stand

R3 could have been £12.99 to depreciate out (note I did not say “clearance sale” there is a difference and dont misquote me)... if its still profitable at £12.99..and boosts flagging sales keep the line going, it sweats the tooling, and defers need for new investment (tooling mods/upgrades etc).

 

I just fear it will be something like.l

 

R1 £16.99 - and sold at £30 by retailers

R2 £19.99 - falls out of fashion, ends up discounted and dumped after ages incurring warehouse costs.

Model disappears for half dozen years, requiring investment in replacement products.

 

I will say Hornbys class 66 is like my proposed cycle.. they reduced the price, increased the range and just look how popular that has been... everyone decried bargain.. yet it was not packaged in any such way, it was down to perception.

 

Its nebulous, they've done it, nothing is going to change it. I’m sure my suggestions are not without flaws, but at least I was trying to be constructive.

 

meanwhile.. there is an increase to more 60 available today on ebay, 10 sold yesterday all above £25... theres no shortage of supply or buyers at the higher price... to me thats not normal... i’m off now to pay £2 for a £1 can of coke.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by adb968008

[PaulRhB]

39 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

You are misquoting me twice, saying things I did not infer and are now resorting to be insulting.

please stop.

 

I maintain my opinion that Hornby priced it wrong, I respect your position about not wanting Hornby to go like LGB, without insulting you, so be a man and not a boy, do the same.

I’m not intending to insult you so not sure where you took that from? My comment about the wet dream is those speculating on eBay etc!

 

40 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m sorry you object to higher prices,

I don’t, I object to blatant profiteering on eBay etc when Hornby have set a price with their vast experience of the market and their own position. 
 

42 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

You would be surprised at eye watering margins on some items, and equally amazed why they even bother on others.

No I wouldn’t and I have direct experience of setting the prices based on brand image and simpler small companies having worked designing products commercially and in retail in a previous career. I’m fully aware my iPhone has a technically massive markup, also on certain cars, but also why they do. I also know what rtr models cost through friends working for a couple of big manufacturers in the recent past. I’ve defended Bachmanns price increases because of the balance within their international ranges when others sputtered on here because I know it’s inevitable in the way the full company structure works. 
I was disappointed that LGB chose their current path and while I could afford it I choose to follow other paths as I don’t see it as value for money any more, simply my decision and I have four friends who’ve chosen a similar change in direction as a result. I support Hornby in doing the special editions at a premium but avoid them for similar reasons but I’d break down the Rocket set as a guess at roughly £100 for the loco and around £25 per coach with a nice collectors box on top.  I paid the extra £10 for the Triang box because I liked it and it was such a small extra for a different print that often commands a bigger premium, otherwise I’d have stuck with the standard set. Having taken the coaches apart to add figures I can see how that breaks down compared to the opens I also got. There’s more tooling in the closed coach and more printing justifying the difference in price. 
So I’m not trying to insult anyone but expressing a view that I don’t like price speculation when an experienced manufacturer has set a price. I’ve not called for them to be reported or boycotted, I think people are sensible enough to make their own decisions on that but I suspect some panicked when told only the week before by email their order was cancelled and rushed in and got caught by the profiteering. I’d rather see Hornby have that money, if anyone, as I said above to invest in other models and if they sorted their allocations earlier it wouldn’t cause a last minute panic. 
Hornby set a fair price and I’m grateful that they did that’s based on comparison to what others are asking on top not what I think they should charge. 

[PaulRhB]

Jolly good we have clarified the misunderstandings  cheers adb 

Has anyone thought about a layout for these? I know the coaches are replicas but you could do a similar what if to the demo track at Liverpool Museum as though they built a short line to run all the replicas on  That would free up the use of Peco track as well. Personally I’m happy to pretend the coaches are the original and might do my own imaginary little through station so I need to figure out the minimum radius they’ll cope with to do a small roundy  

[Legend]

Kernows approach has certainly been noted favourably by me. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Legend

[adb968008]

17 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Jolly good we have clarified the misunderstandings  cheers adb 

Has anyone thought about a layout for these? I know the coaches are replicas but you could do a similar what if to the demo track at Liverpool Museum as though they built a short line to run all the replicas on  That would free up the use of Peco track as well. Personally I’m happy to pretend the coaches are the original and might do my own imaginary little through station so I need to figure out the minimum radius they’ll cope with to do a small roundy  

I dont know about a layout, but I definitely think that as a rusty brown wagon chassis,

 

I could find some enparts store use for a few, in different states of dereliction with some industrial shunter.

 

 

and those footsteps, cut in half could make useful class 66 airdam steps spares.

 

not sure about the body, but just noted the door handles are not moulded..

 (I bought mine direct from Hornby, as my usual seller couldn't supply, or the 1p’s  or the pannier’s , or the W1 for that matter, which is maybe why i’m sore.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

How does a wooden carriage underframe go rusty? 

 

Something I've often wondered with those eBay "weathered" models....

[PaulRhB]

Just now, Steamport Southport said:

How does a wooden carriage underframe go rusty? 

 

Something I've often wondered with those eBay "weathered" models....

It doesn’t but they often look like they are if they have iron brake shoes as the dust coats the underframe and rusts  

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, PaulRhB said:

It doesn’t but they often look like they are if they have iron brake shoes as the dust coats the underframe and rusts  

 

What brakes? They didn't have any.

 

Lion only has a tender hand brake, but that tender isn't it's original. The one it has now came from one of the Furness Railway 0-4-0s when they were rebuilt into tank engines.

 

 

Jason

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m sorry you object to higher prices, but i think Hornby is underpriced, I know thats a war cry to some, but when I see something and think thats cheap, and its a new release, then its odd. Dapols mogul I think the same. But equally, Buy it now as future prices are higher is at odds with a fashion item that quickly goes out of fashion... no one pays more for an out of date ipad.

 

Is that because Bachmann and now Heljan have set such high prices now though? Cheap / expensive is all relative... Dapol / Hornby / Accurascale etc. all seem to be comparatively lower priced.

Roy

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

How does a wooden carriage underframe go rusty? 

 

Something I've often wondered with those eBay "weathered" models....

I’m quite sure 150 year old Liverpool and Manchester coaches werent about in 1980 either. I’m very certain the class 66 airdam steps arent 150 years old either.

 

its called modelling.

 

Not everything is black and white, its about interpretation and imagination.

 

That chassis provides an unusual starting point for a project... or is only rtr modelling allowed  now ?

 

ive got some 300 year old timber in my yard, its black as black can be, and ive not painted it. Weathering is natural, shoot me for using the word rust.. thats what the label says on my tin, but its only paint... its not really going to convert plastic to rust.

some lightening up us needed... 

this wagon is very light weight, so can I have your permission to use my model for something else other than its design purpose ?

 

 

After christmas i’ll stick some pine leaves in it and sell it as a weathered wagon for £150.

Edited December 10, 2020 by adb968008

[Roy Langridge]

My 3rd class coach from Hattons has been dispatched today - not January as was looking likely.

Roy

[aaron3820]

Mine has been dispatched as well. Now to see how long it takes to make its way to Australia. 
 

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m quite sure 150 year old Liverpool and Manchester coaches werent about in 1980 either. I’m very certain the class 66 airdam steps arent 150 years old either.

 

its called modelling.

 

Not everything is black and white, its about interpretation and imagination.

 

That chassis provides an unusual starting point for a project... or is only rtr modelling allowed  now ?

 

ive got some 300 year old timber in my yard, its black as black can be, and ive not painted it. Weathering is natural, shoot me for using the word rust.. thats what the label says on my tin, but its only paint... its not really going to convert plastic to rust.

some lightening up us needed... 

this wagon is very light weight, so can I have your permission to use my model for something else other than its design purpose ?

 

 

After christmas i’ll stick some pine leaves in it and sell it as a weathered wagon for £150.

 

Nah - only N gauge is suitable for such decorative purposes....................

[Cor-onGRT4]

14 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

My 3rd class coach from Hattons has been dispatched today - not January as was looking likely.

Roy

Mine was put in my trunk, just ordered to send with some other things.

But as i understand from ordering a while back there were two batches Hattons expected, 

Think we were in the first batch when we ordered, it is still expected as January, so another batch they get later. 

[Tiddles47]

Got my 2 yesterday from Arcadia. Very impressed.  

[SHMD]

I got a call last week and today I also nipped around to Arcadia, in Shaw, where I picked up my two for just under £17 each.

 

There was also the last 5 left, on display, for anyone else who wants one. Again for just less that £17 each.

 

 

Kev.

 

[stewartingram]

I purchased the standard version when it came out. The loco suffered a stutter, so it is at present dismantled for a modification/rectification. However I noticed about a week ago that one of the coaches had 2 buffers missing (from new.

I've emailed Hornby customer services (on Thursday) but have yet to receive a response. Does anyone have a couple spare (perhaps from a conversion project?) or have any suggestions for a source of replacements?

[Gibbo675]

31 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

I purchased the standard version when it came out. The loco suffered a stutter, so it is at present dismantled for a modification/rectification. However I noticed about a week ago that one of the coaches had 2 buffers missing (from new.

I've emailed Hornby customer services (on Thursday) but have yet to receive a response. Does anyone have a couple spare (perhaps from a conversion project?) or have any suggestions for a source of replacements?

Hi Stewart,

 

One of my coaches is missing a buffer also, so far I haven't done anything about it yet.

 

Gibbo.

[Mel_H]

Popped into BJ Model shop Kings Lynn yesterday. He has stock and is not planning to hike prices. It’s a well stocked shop with a car park just behind it, if you are ever passing. Worth a visit! https://youngstersworld.com/products/Hornby-r40141-l-mr-open-3rd-class-coach?_pos=1&_sid=3ef7932e2&_ss=r
 

 

Edited December 13, 2020 by Mel_H

[big jim]

anyone still looking for the open coach trident trains have a few in stock as of today (sunday), they are shut til wednesday though 

[newbryford]

Someone's going to get burnt:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw=&epid=13042851429&_ssn=47401-project&hash=item4b88a79aab%3Ag%3AVfMAAOSwJHdf1Ta5&item=324415232683&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313&_nkw=r40141&_sacat=0