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New Hornby Rocket

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Right, I'm going to be a miserable old pedant and question whether carriages of this type ever ran with Rocket in this condition...

 

My reference is Geoffrey Hill, The Worsdells - A Quaker Engineering Dynasty (Transport Publishing Co, 1991).

 

Thomas Clarke Worsdell (1788-1862), the grandfather of Thomas William and Wilson of NER fame, was responsible for the design and construction of the L&M's first carriages, in the company's Crown Steet, Liverpool, workshops. He had been introduced to George Stephenson by his fellow Quaker, James Cropper, a L&M director. At a meeting in 1828, Wrsdell and Stephenson worked through their ideas for passenger carriages. It is unclear when carriages actually started being built or what rolling stock was available during the Rainhill trials. However, there were enough second class vehicles for seven trains at the opening day. The number of first and mail carriages isn't given though it is said the names of 26 are known from various sources; how many of these were in service on the opening day is unclear. 

 

T.C. Worsdell was responsible for the design and construction, at the Crown Street works, of Rocket's tender for the Rainhill trials.

 

I've also looked through Christopher McGowan, The Rainhill Trials (Little, Brown, 2004) which for a popular book has a surprisingly technical account of each of the competitors but is absolutely silent on the subject of rolling stock. McGowan is very clear that Rocket was built to win the competition, not to be the most efficient locomotive for general service - Lancashire Witch was closer to that, with expansive working (though at fixed cut-off). 

 

I suspect that R.H.G. Thomas, The Liverpool and Manchester Railway (Batsford, 1980), cited by Hill, may bring clarification.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Right, I'm going to be a miserable old pedant and question whether carriages of this type ever ran with Rocket in this condition...

Richard Gibbon’s book ‘Stephenson’s Rocket and the Rainhill Trials’ states that, “ while crowds were waiting, Rocket entertained them by giving rides and demonstrations. Passengers were carried up and down the nearby steep Whiston Incline on seats temporarily arranged in one of the test wagons.”

This supports the idea that these coaches weren’t at the trials which accounts for the engravings showing wagons identical to Rocket & Sans Pareil’s tenders. 
The coaches modelled ran at the opening but the new improved Northumbrian type included many improvements such as ashpan and smokebox and while they ran alongside each other its not clear when Rocket was upgraded to include the same improvements. Rocket was relegated to lighter work as the Northumbrian type were more powerful and it was used on construction trains for the extended line. It’s known it suffered several minor accidents and had modifications then so it might be that this is when it was upgraded. 
So it is possible it ran on the opening day in near original condition as the engravings, p34, of it hauling the pre opening tour trains show it in original condition. It’s almost certain though that Rocket was then relegated to lighter duties so the authenticity for this train was probably a matter of days or weeks? 

So what you need is some wagons based on the tender, some Northumbrian class locos and a range of figures in mid 1800’s dress ;) 

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29 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

So what you need is some wagons based on the tender, some Northumbrian class locos and a range of figures in mid 1800’s dress ;) 

I'll pop my Dad over to Modelu...

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37 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

a range of figures in mid 1800’s dress ;) 

 

Here's Stadden's version but I think these are rather more 1840s/50s. Fashions in 1830 had yet to become Victorian - tail end of Regency, really: 

 

image.png.337e115b7ee98b4cbcd32c0367ed33a6.png

 

L to R: dinner dress; carriage dress; promenade dress.

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On 10/01/2020 at 09:16, CF MRC said:

The un-lagged boiler on the surviving Rocket is 3’4” diameter, so with lagging, just within the back to back measurement of 14.4mm for OO.  It has been stated elsewhere that the model is to 4mm scale.  Conversion to P4 would probably not be very difficult.  I wonder what version of Rocket is shown in the photo with the Precursor(?).
 

Tim

 

I believe it's the LNWR replica.

 

From Wiki.

 

The earliest full-size replica of Rocket seems to have been one depicted on a London & North Western Railway postcard (therefore pre-1923).

 

No idea of what happened to it, but I think it was the one plinthed outside Clapham Museum.

 

http://blogs.bbk.ac.uk/mapping-museums/2017/09/15/museum-of-british-transport/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/37944493685

 

 

Jason

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Right, I'm going to be a miserable old pedant and question whether carriages of this type ever ran with Rocket in this condition...

They did, but probably not before 1929 and as replicas. I would question the wheelbase of the carriages, longer than the contemporary engravings and, perhaps more tellingly, longer than the not-much-later replica carriages built to go with Der Adler.

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7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I believe it's the LNWR replica.

 

From Wiki.

 

The earliest full-size replica of Rocket seems to have been one depicted on a London & North Western Railway postcard (therefore pre-1923).

 

No idea of what happened to it, but I think it was the one plinthed outside Clapham Museum.

 

http://blogs.bbk.ac.uk/mapping-museums/2017/09/15/museum-of-british-transport/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/37944493685

 

 

Jason

 

On which point, does anybody know what became of the working Rocket replica built in the US in 1923 for the Buster Keaton film 'Our Hospitality'?

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6 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

I asked about that:

R3809:  Times, Dispatch and Experience (say as the triang ones)

R3810: Globe, Renown and Wellington

  Um.. theres  a photo in the Hornby 2020 thread with Globe etc in a red box with Triang Railways on top which I took as being the inside of the R3809 set

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It appears that that may have been a mistake, and it certainly makes more sense for the "Tri-ang" set to have the Tri-ang coach names rather than the other way round.

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1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

  Um.. theres  a photo in the Hornby 2020 thread with Globe etc in a red box with Triang Railways on top which I took as being the inside of the R3809 set

But as I said previously, the 2020 catalogue states that R3809 had coaches named 'Times', 'Despatch' and 'Experience', as per the original Tri-ang set.

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That was mentioned the other day in the Hornby 2020 thread. The display box apparently had the wrong carriages in it.

 

Also leaves the NRM/Liverpool Museum names for a different set. NRM Limited Edition maybe?

 

 

 

Jason

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10 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

They did, but probably not before 1929 and as replicas. I would question the wheelbase of the carriages, longer than the contemporary engravings and, perhaps more tellingly, longer than the not-much-later replica carriages built to go with Der Adler.

That sounds almost as if I can legitimately run it on my layout, assuming the Rocket ran on Southern Railway branch lines in the 1930s. :jester:

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Like many, I have been looking at this release too. In my books it is the most interesting of the Hornby new releases. With the reaction to the release, I cannot help but think that if Hornby were to release some goods wagons and another loco they would do very nicely indeed and set up a whole new era for people to model. One can wish.

 

Craig W

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11 minutes ago, Craigw said:

With the reaction to the release, I cannot help but think that if Hornby were to release some goods wagons and another loco they would do very nicely indeed and set up a whole new era for people to model.

The 'Regency Railways' series? Mmm

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17 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

I'll pop my Dad over to Modelu...

Who’s your Dad.......Jacob Rees-Mogg? :lol:

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13 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Also leaves the NRM/Liverpool Museum names for a different set. NRM Limited Edition maybe?

Along with a new tooling of  an open coach hopefully

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Popped into my local shop to be told R3609 has been extremely  popular and sold out  but managed to order R3610.

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2 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

Who’s your Dad.......Jacob Rees-Mogg? :lol:

That won't work, he won't sit upright in the coach.

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3 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Bernard,

 

Regency Railways certainly sounds good and may well look a little like what is featured here:

 

http://www.5and9models.co.uk/index.html

 

Gibbo.

Thanks Gibbo, though for those are far too modern image for George. ;)

Though a Planet would be right up his street...

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Psssssst ...... if any one is interested - over on Catawiki, there is an original Hornby 'Rocket' set R.796 currently being bid at 78€ with 3 days to go in its original box. It appears that there are two 'spikes' missing from the top of the chimbly.

 

Here's a link to save you trawling through the pages : https://www.catawiki.eu/l/33409181-Hornby-00-h0-r-796-locomotive-a-vapeur-avec-tender-separe-r-796-rocket-de-stephenson-locomotive-a-vapeur-et-voitures-nostalgiques-old-timer

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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I had an email from TMC showing new items in stock & ready for delivery. R3810 was included.....

 

Stewart

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19 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

  Um.. theres  a photo in the Hornby 2020 thread with Globe etc in a red box with Triang Railways on top which I took as being the inside of the R3809 set

 

I saw that and made an enquiry so R3809 is as per Triang days (Dispatch, Times, Experience), R3810 with Renown, Repulse, Globe and Wellington.

 

 

 

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Does anyone know if Rocket type locos ever ran tender first or were they turned on some early turntable design?

Just curious.

 

Paul 

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