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Hornby W1 Hush Hush


truffy
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14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

But the W1 does have a swivelling truck between the frames that should follow the track.

This could be accomodated on the model as has been mentioned, with flangeless wheels and a locking screw for traversing train set curves but flanged wheels with movement for larger radii.

The W1 just accentuates the fixed wheels anomaly

Exactly so - the leading carrying wheel at the rear of the engine was a radial axle as on the pacifics.  But the trailing carrying axle at the rear end was a Bissel truck with inside frames - so it would follow the track if modelled correctly.  To me Hornby's approach with the W1 unfortunately appears to be to go for the cheapest to produce solution rather than bother with doing it properly for the rearmost carrying axle.  

 

And if that photo of the parts represents the production version it looks as if it would need a milling machine to create space for a proper trailing truck - sorry but it has helped to even more dissuade me from buying a W1.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, atom3624 said:

You know what?

I'm losing interest in this model, probably for now, after Hornby's fathing around with the suppliers.

My guess is they're going to lose sales, even if it may 'stabilise pricing and margins'.

I have one on preorder with an, until now, reliable retailer. If they, and my preorder, get shafted by Hornby I'll not be buying from Hornby direct.

 

I've long desired a W1, but not at any cost*. This is not only a discretional spend for me, but an 'oooh-unusual' rule #1. I will get by without it, if that comes to pass.

 

Like you, the recent revelations of Hornby's practices with retailers have rather soured my view of them (Hornby, that is, not the retailers!).

 

* the cost in this case being an apparent lack of business ethics

Edited by truffy
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  • 1 month later...

Hopefully this isn't breaking any embargos and I'll remove if it upsets anyone, but no-one said this wasn't shareable and I asked permission to take photographs and handle the model.

 

IMG_4302.jpg.73e67a3d40fd060c64cb16d63e029d99.jpg

I had a chance to get hands-on with the LNER green-liveried W1 last week and observe it running.

 

IMG_4300.jpg.57d26b329d19b361e979094fdd3cf69b.jpg

 

A few short observations:

  • The loco is light. Feels lighter than it 'looks' given its bulk - the boiler / bodyshell is all plastic and the chassis doesn't feel particularly heavy. No more so than the current A3 / A4 models, and from memory not as heavy as the A2/2 or, say, Hornby's current Princess Royal Pacifics. I was told this example could haul 6 bogie carriages on the level but struggled beyond that. Hopefully this was an early sample without the final amount of weighting added.
     
  • Lamps are included. They are shown fitted on the box art. A really nice touch IMHO that makes the loco look much more 'finished'. Hopefully this is the start of a new habit from Hornby including them in the detail pack.

IMG_4299.jpg.4a2e537597c98162c278741f12efd97c.jpg

  • Detail pack had vacuum hoses, brake rigging, and a pair of axles with unflanged wheels. Can't remember if there was a three-link coupling. The loco was already supplied with unflanged trailing truck wheels, so it seems odd more would be included. A pre-production oversight perhaps.

IMG_4306.jpg.73900b1362ee7352adeacbc184426c1e.jpg

  • Colour looks similar to the A2/3 Edward Thompson seen alongside. I believe some took issue with this being a shade too 'blue' and not a warm enough green. Then again it's a fictional livery only used on promotional cigarette cards. These are only handheld iPhone shots of moving models under artifical light.

IMG_4303.jpg.2826e4e1e7e7f1a254a0a2e1f8be2f35.jpg

  • Lining, cab detail and overall shape look fabulous. Very glad Hornby now have a 1928-style corridor tender in the range and wish they would sell it separately to save hacking about with NRM Flying Scotsman eBay finds...

IMG_4309.jpg.adde3cf92eb0586acefd7c8d6b4eb744.jpg

  • The W1 ran smoothly and quietly around a simple large radius oval. Even on wide curves the rearmost wheels hang outside of the rail, and because of how the rear truck is cut away, it's noticeable the wheels aren't turning. I daresay with weathering this could be disguised, and the argument of how Hornby could/should have designed the chassis will run and run.

I'm not a professional modeller (or model reviewer). These are just a few amateur observations having had a good look around one particular specimen and being familiar with Hornby's Gresley models. Still looking forward to seeing the finished articles in their various liveries and hearing how you all get on with yours. Apparently the first shipment is already in Margate...

 

IMG_4308.jpg.4b344533e4ed2918417ca8f0477c1ddb.jpg

 

Ollie

Edited by OliverBytham
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After seeing a Hornby video of the back hanging out on the W1 I cancelled my order.

I have built the "A4" version with a simple swing truck for the rear, looks a million times better, and goes around curves without issue.

A great shame Hornby didnt do some simple research on the chassis, before going for the naff rimless wheels which look even worse than the single Cartazzi A3/4 Hornby versions.

 

 

904075709_1aw1IMG_8705.jpg.60ea4ef5412238cf347ecb45cc05f0bf.jpg

Edited by micklner
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, OliverBytham said:

Hopefully this isn't breaking any embargos

 

I thought the whole point of the W1 was its all a bit hush hush

 

:D


.. i know I know I know..

:hunter:

 

Edited by adb968008
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Must admit I'm still interested in this model.

I'd always been super-curious of the 'specials' - Fury, Turbomotive, W1, Great Bear, etc ...

 

Appetite had been substantially cut by Hornby's fathing around with this stupid tier system which meant the 2 I had on pre-order from Hattons were cancelled.

 

Looks good.

Stupid oversight with the weight if it doesn't increase - 6 only, that's ridiculous - should haul at least 10 non-lit, free-rolling coaches.

 

Great photos and THANK YOU for sharing.

 

Al.

Edited by atom3624
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On 15/05/2021 at 21:20, cctransuk said:

 

I don't - not a single ex-LNER loco.

 

Fortunately, I don't require any - but I would be greatly disincentivised from modelling any ex-LNER location that required me to run RTR Pacifics with wheels that hovered above the rails, or swung out into fresh air.

 

It is possible to produce RTR 16.5mm. gauge / 4mm. scale LNER Pacifics with fixed trailing frames and pivotting trailing trucks for running on sensible radius tracks. As I said, it simply requires a locking screw and an unflanged wheelset to enable such models to run on less-than-sensible radius tracks.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Remember when Hornby supplied their streamlined Coronation class locomotives with a spare pilot truck that had larger diameter wheels fitted for those not using R2 curves. They did it in the past,  so a swivelling trailing truck inside the Cartazzi frame should have been a possibility,  however when your target market is collectors who display their models or toy trainset layouts then Hornby takes the easy way out.    Hornby make toys,  not models. 

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6 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Remember when Hornby supplied their streamlined Coronation class locomotives with a spare pilot truck that had larger diameter wheels fitted for those not using R2 curves. They did it in the past,  so a swivelling trailing truck inside the Cartazzi frame should have been a possibility,  however when your target market is collectors who display their models or toy trainset layouts then Hornby takes the easy way out.    Hornby make toys,  not models. 

your last comment is very unfair, they do make models and toy trains, as does Bachmann. Dapol, Heljan etc etc don't do train sets or cheaper range products but i would argue that Bachmann's and Hornby's higher end stuff is just if not better. Do they all make just toys as well then?

As for the model, looks very nice, great shape to it.  i see allot of seem lines though, one right down the top of the model, others down near running plate towards the front. Are these how the real thing was made or a compromise on the moulding?

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40 minutes ago, jonnyuk said:

your last comment is very unfair, they do make models and toy trains, as does Bachmann. 

 

For many years I had largescale trains from LGB,  Bachmann,  Aristocraft and USA Trains.  To this day LGB still prides itself that the majority of its locomotives and rolling stock will negotiate four foot diameter curves (the equivalent of R1 in "OO" scale).  This impacts on the design of the item requiring design compensations which impact the look of the item.  Almost twenty years ago Bachmann decided that detailed realistic models simply were not suited to R1 curves and produced exquisite locomotives that required a minimum eight foot diameter.  Aristocraft and USA Trains followed suit for their steam outline models and five foot minimum for diesels.     These days where fidelity is essential to many R2 is an antiquated design limitation for a model and the end result is a toy.

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9 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

Remember when Hornby supplied their streamlined Coronation class locomotives with a spare pilot truck that had larger diameter wheels fitted for those not using R2 curves. They did it in the past,  

R3623 has both the spare pilot truck as a flanged wheelset for the pony/cartazzi-truck, R3857 as well I think, but it is still in the UK, so I can't confirm. 

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6 hours ago, jonnyuk said:

As for the model, looks very nice, great shape to it.  i see allot of seem lines though, one right down the top of the model, others down near running plate towards the front. Are these how the real thing was made or a compromise on the moulding?

 

This picture of the prototype shows a ridge running along the top: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_W1#/media/File:Engine_10000_on_turntable_(Wonder_Book_of_Engineering_Wonders,_1931).jpg

 

Not sure about the other line you mention.

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6 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 

For many years I had largescale trains from LGB,  Bachmann,  Aristocraft and USA Trains.  To this day LGB still prides itself that the majority of its locomotives and rolling stock will negotiate four foot diameter curves (the equivalent of R1 in "OO" scale).  This impacts on the design of the item requiring design compensations which impact the look of the item.  Almost twenty years ago Bachmann decided that detailed realistic models simply were not suited to R1 curves and produced exquisite locomotives that required a minimum eight foot diameter.  Aristocraft and USA Trains followed suit for their steam outline models and five foot minimum for diesels.     These days where fidelity is essential to many R2 is an antiquated design limitation for a model and the end result is a toy.

I remember seeing a large scale UP "Big Boy" negotiating ridiculously sharp curves at an exhibition and the front of the smokebox overhang was totally outside the front truck.

It looked stupid.

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Just now, melmerby said:

I remember seeing a large scale UP "Big Boy" negotiating ridiculously sharp curves at an exhibition and the front of the smokebox overhang was totally outside the front truck.

It looked stupid.

Depends on how far it was sticking out. I believe this is the sharpest #4014 can go around. Time stamp of 4:40 is when she starts to go around the curve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlK61l6yQI&t=280s

 

23 hours ago, micklner said:

I have built the "A4" version with a simple swing truck for the rear, looks a million times better, and goes around curves without issue.

 

Hey @micklner, have you ever shared images of what you did for the back bogie on your W1's? 

 

I bet after the W1 release, somebody will be making a kit to make this Hornby one better....

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4 hours ago, Johan DC said:

R3623 has both the spare pilot truck as a flanged wheelset for the pony/cartazzi-truck, R3857 as well I think, but it is still in the UK, so I can't confirm. 

A Cartazzi truck is where the wheels/axleboxes swing from side to side inside a fixed frame à la Gresley locos, a Bissel truck is what most other locos that have a trailing truck use and the whole frame with the wheels swings from a pivot some distance in front.

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15 hours ago, Ribird said:

Depends on how far it was sticking out. I believe this is the sharpest #4014 can go around. Time stamp of 4:40 is when she starts to go around the curve. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAlK61l6yQI&t=280s

 

 

Hey @micklner, have you ever shared images of what you did for the back bogie on your W1's? 

 

I bet after the W1 release, somebody will be making a kit to make this Hornby one better....

Have a look here

 

https://www.lner.info/forums/search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=w1&t=2443&sf=msgonly&ch=0&start=15

 

All the work of Graeme King , all I have done is build examples of  his kits using Hornby or Bachmann locos  . I forgot to mention in this model , the W1 is based on the Hornby A4 R2339.

Edited by micklner
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18 hours ago, melmerby said:

A Cartazzi truck is where the wheels/axleboxes swing from side to side inside a fixed frame à la Gresley locos, a Bissel truck is what most other locos that have a trailing truck use and the whole frame with the wheels swings from a pivot some distance in front.

Thanks Keith for the information. Please forgive this ignorant Belgian :) Am I right to asume that the W1 has a combination of a Cartazzi and a Bissel truck?

 

 

 

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On 14/07/2021 at 21:24, GWR-fan said:

These days where fidelity is essential to many R2 is an antiquated design limitation for a model and the end result is a toy.

The problem is that many modellers have a finished (or finished to the point they are happy with) layout and many of these include R2 curves. To suddenly start making new models that will only go round higher radius curves would be to alienate all those modellers and that would be company suicide. 

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1 hour ago, Johan DC said:

Thanks Keith for the information. Please forgive this ignorant Belgian :) Am I right to asume that the W1 has a combination of a Cartazzi and a Bissel truck?

 

That's correct

The front pair of trailing wheels are Gresley's preferred Cartazzi axle, The rear pair are a Bissel truck.

As such it is not really a 4-6-4 (Whyte notation), rather a 4-6-2-2 as the 4 trailing wheels are not in a common frame.

 

It's an unusual arrangement, I don't know whether it has been used elsewhere but then again the W1 was pretty unusual as it started life with a high pressure water tube boiler, rather than a fire tube boiler, which is normal for steam locomotives.

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On 14/07/2021 at 16:43, InterCity80s said:

 

This picture of the prototype shows a ridge running along the top: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_W1#/media/File:Engine_10000_on_turntable_(Wonder_Book_of_Engineering_Wonders,_1931).jpg

 

Not sure about the other line you mention.

 

It's not apparent on the prototype. Or at least not as apparent as Hornby might have us believe:

 

IMG_4306.jpg.73900b1362ee7352adeacbc184426c1e.jpg.fabf71d48ac6406f68e27aae0dc87579.jpg

10000-Hauling-an-Passenger-Train-Credit-Phil-Copleston-e1545821671410.jpg.062ff576d6fac113b6596ccba82fd0ec.jpg

 

Funny thing is that when I questioned Simon Kohler about this, he said that there was no seam on the model. Hmmmmm.

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

That's correct

The front pair of trailing wheels are Gresley's preferred Cartazzi axle, The rear pair are a Bissel truck.

As such it is not really a 4-6-4 (Whyte notation), rather a 4-6-2-2 as the 4 trailing wheels are not in a common frame.

 

It's an unusual arrangement, I don't know whether it has been used elsewhere but then again the W1 was pretty unusual as it started life with a high pressure water tube boiler, rather than a fire tube boiler, which is normal for steam locomotives.

I wonder why the Bissel truck wasn't discarded when the loco was rebuilt, and the rear frames trimmed a bit. The fireman's hike would have been reduced, as would the controversy here!

 

The NIm.

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27 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

It's not apparent on the prototype. Or at least not as apparent as Hornby might have us believe:

 

IMG_4306.jpg.73900b1362ee7352adeacbc184426c1e.jpg.fabf71d48ac6406f68e27aae0dc87579.jpg

10000-Hauling-an-Passenger-Train-Credit-Phil-Copleston-e1545821671410.jpg.062ff576d6fac113b6596ccba82fd0ec.jpg

 

Funny thing is that when I questioned Simon Kohler about this, he said that there was no seam on the model. Hmmmmm.

So that must mean the boddy shell is moulded from one sheet of plastic.

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20 minutes ago, Nimbus said:

I wonder why the Bissel truck wasn't discarded when the loco was rebuilt, and the rear frames trimmed a bit. The fireman's hike would have been reduced, as would the controversy here!

 

The NIm.

And why fit the large cylinders?

Considering the amount of rebuilding required, it could have been made into a 'more or less' standard A4 type machine, as it was it was always a one off non standard beast.

According to the info I have seen, even as a quasi A4 hybrid it still weighed slightly less than a proper A4 and with some 10% extra TE

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1 hour ago, DonnyRailMan said:

So that must mean the boddy shell is moulded from one sheet of plastic.

I think the body shell is made of lh and rh part with the main split line at the top of the boiler.

The smaller line could be the mark of an interchangeable tool insert to reflect the differences between 1930's and 1936's version.

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11 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

As such it is not really a 4-6-4 (Whyte notation), rather a 4-6-2-2 as the 4 trailing wheels are not in a common frame.

 

I've sometimes wondered about how the Whyte notation applies to anomalies such as double singles, double Fairies, booster engines etc.  In fact anything where the arrangement isn't the customary three groups of even numbers.  Is there some formal definition somewhere of the circumstances in which a number of axles form a group like this?  And if the result isn't the usual three groups of axles, how one know which axles are driven.

 

For example how would one classify a hypothetical engine with no leading bogie, 6 coupled drivers and a W1 pony truck or a booster bogie?

 

A plus sign is used where there is articulation such as a Mallett or Garratt, so why shouldn't your articulated W1 trailing bogie be described as 4-6-2+2 ?

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