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Hornby W1 Hush Hush


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The images of the real loco under construction are fascinating, I particularly like the one of the rolling chassis, minus the centre drivimg wheels. The boiler cradle looks delightfully like a motor mount, as though Sir Nigel was experimenting with a completely different form of power!

 

I dare say I could even be tempted by the rebuilt loco as well as the original beast as it's looking very good indeed (not really surprising)

 

I'll definitely be interested to see further developments and painted samples.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

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I'm disappointed that the CADs confirm my impression from the earlier stereo samples, that the rebuild's smokebox doors are flat in the transverse direction. In reality they inherited the bow curve of the bufferbeam casing at the bottom, easing the curve out gradually until straight at the top hinge line. With a suitably dusty loco and angle of sunlight, the unequal protrusion of the bottom hinges (to get the hinge pins in line) demonstrates this, for those who hadn't noticed before. And Hornby have a full-size set 'downstairs' on Bittern for reference!

 

The Nim.
 

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On ‎24‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 12:56, OliverBytham said:

At last, a 1928-style non-streamlined corridor tender from Hornby. If only this was available to buy separately in LNER apple green - would be great for modelling the A1s and A3s between 1928 and 1935, like Papyrus on its 108.5mph record run. 

 

If your after a tender off that model get in touch as I could swap if you got a high detailed corridor connector top for the project I will be working on...

 

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On 25/04/2020 at 00:02, adb968008 said:

Apologies if already covered, but why the ship yard grey choice of livery anyway ?

its hardly LNER standard and it wasnt a freight loco?

 

Because Yarrow was a marine builder. Ships and boilers alike. They did a lot of work for the Royal Navy whom painted their ships in grey.

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Sounds implausible to me, sorry.  Yarrow did a lot of work for civilian shipowners too, and would have painted their output in whatever colours the customer specified.

 

My own speculation is that it may have had something to do with 'photographic grey', and that being retained for some time either because further modifications were expected, or else somebody high-up saw it and just liked it that way!

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Had to preorder this particularly as the prototype has a connection to my home town which I had no idea of until I read the article in Engine Shed. Looking forward to adding it to the collection whatever the colour! Lol! 

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On 29/04/2020 at 15:02, Willie Whizz said:

Sounds implausible to me, sorry.  Yarrow did a lot of work for civilian shipowners too, and would have painted their output in whatever colours the customer specified.

 

My own speculation is that it may have had something to do with 'photographic grey', and that being retained for some time either because further modifications were expected, or else somebody high-up saw it and just liked it that way!

 

Back then though, the RN was a really big customer of Yarrow and most ship builders. The bulk of their work was with Destroyers and small craft which probably brings the boilers down to dimensions needed for a loco. 

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The large model which stood in the now closed Darlington museum and which is now, I believe, in the Head of Steam museum was supposedly contemporary with the real loco and was painted in what I remember as a light photographic grey. The loco was still a legend when I was growing up in North Road, Darlington  in the 1950s and there was never any mention of it being quiet - just secret.

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Two images of the model in the Head Of Steam museum Darlington. They were taken within seconds of each other from very slightly different positions with the same camera and settings, but you can see the subtle differences of lighting and shade between the images.

The reflections from glass display case don't help determine a true impression of the shade of grey either. A real minefield for the modeller I'd say.

Regards,

 

                 John

IMG_0450.JPG

IMG_0452.JPG

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8 hours ago, Brit70053 said:

Two images of the model in the Head Of Steam museum Darlington. They were taken within seconds of each other from very slightly different positions with the same camera and settings, but you can see the subtle differences of lighting and shade between the images.

The reflections from glass display case don't help determine a true impression of the shade of grey either. A real minefield for the modeller I'd say.

Regards,

 

                 John

IMG_0450.JPG

IMG_0452.JPG

 

The grey livery on the model is not accurate. The model was built alongside the real locomotive by Darlington apprentices but was damage in a fire at the works before the war. As part of the insurance claim, the model was repainted in a lighter colour than it originally carried. The grey used on the real locomotive and the model was a mix of two paints specified by the LNER themselves, not Yarrow, the Royal Navy or even the Zepplin company.

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Another chapter in the book of something new learned every day on RMWeb, thanks Headstock.

I think what my photos illustrate is how easily the camera's or eye's perception of colour and shades of it can be so easily altered simply by a slight change of viewpoint. A veritable minefield and I wish Hornby well with this aspect of what I'm sure will be a wonderful model.

 

          Regards,

 

                         John 

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Well, being also an occasional warship modeller too, I would say that livery on that 'Head of Steam' model as it now stands is too light for inter-War 'Home Fleet Grey' (which was quite dark) and too dark for 'Mediterranean Fleet Grey''  (which was quite light).  For what that's worth, which is not a lot ... and sorry but I'm afraid I still don't buy a naval connection.

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21 hours ago, Willie Whizz said:

Well, being also an occasional warship modeller too, I would say that livery on that 'Head of Steam' model as it now stands is too light for inter-War 'Home Fleet Grey' (which was quite dark) and too dark for 'Mediterranean Fleet Grey''  (which was quite light).  For what that's worth, which is not a lot ... and sorry but I'm afraid I still don't buy a naval connection.

I think the only naval connection is that the boiler was designed and built by Yarrow and the rolling chassis went to Yarrow's premises in Glasgow in order for the boiler to be fitted and the outer casing was added at Yarrow's works where it was photographed before the engine went back to Darlington Works for finishing.  Presumably it was painted in a suitable colour for photography at Yarrow's works but that, no doubt,  would have been either Photographic Grey or something akin to it.  I'm sure that all is made clear in William Brown's book about the project and Iselesy has already stated in this thread that Hornby consulted him during their reserch.  The Loveless model also appeared in a dark grey livery.

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On 04/05/2020 at 18:07, Headstock said:

 

The grey livery on the model is not accurate. The model was built alongside the real locomotive by Darlington apprentices but was damage in a fire at the works before the war. As part of the insurance claim, the model was repainted in a lighter colour than it originally carried. The grey used on the real locomotive and the model was a mix of two paints specified by the LNER themselves, not Yarrow, the Royal Navy or even the Zepplin company.


so potentially, somewhere on that model exists some of the original paint ?

ive never yet seen any object 100% totally obliterated the original paint, there is always a point where “that will do”, “that won’t matter” and “no one will ever notice”.

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2 hours ago, adb968008 said:


so potentially, somewhere on that model exists some of the original paint ?

ive never yet seen any object 100% totally obliterated the original paint, there is always a point where “that will do”, “that won’t matter” and “no one will ever notice”.

 

I think that original paint chips were recovered from the model, It is such a while ago that I don't remember for sure. There was talk of having the model restored to its original condition but it seems to have come to nothing. I seem to recall, that the original paint specification as specified by the LNER is still in the file anyway, so there is no reason for Hornby to get it wrong.

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1 hour ago, Floreat Industria said:

Presumably the locomotive was painted in standard  photographic 18% reflective grey for its marvellous works photograph. Would there have been any sense in changing the shade for entry into the little actual service it saw?

Locos that ran in traffic in, for example, green or red liveries were photographed in grey for their official work's photo so their colours were definitely changed - so why should this engine have been any different?

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2 hours ago, Floreat Industria said:

Presumably the locomotive was painted in standard  photographic 18% reflective grey for its marvellous works photograph. Would there have been any sense in changing the shade for entry into the little actual service it saw?

 

The Hornby site diagram shown above seems to be specifying Reichs-Ausschuß für Lieferbedingungen 7016, which a shade of anthracite grey. See outdoor examples here:

 https://ral-colours.co.uk/ral-classic-colours/grey-shades/ral-7016/

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Floreat Industria said:

Presumably the locomotive was painted in standard  photographic 18% reflective grey for its marvellous works photograph. Would there have been any sense in changing the shade for entry into the little actual service it saw?

 

It was exhibited at some pretty high profile events though. Especially the Liverpool & Manchester Railway centenary where it was one of the main exhibits.

 

This is the condition I expect it to be. Certainly doesn't look light grey. And worth considering the locomotive behind is black.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-post-grouping-locomotives/LNER-P2-W1/i-xPhZnHr/A

 

 

 

Jason

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7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Locos that ran in traffic in, for example, green or red liveries were photographed in grey for their official work's photo so their colours were definitely changed - so why should this engine have been any different?

 

The only reason that idea makes any sense to me is that they might have been expecting to need to make some changes to the exterior of the loco, and wanted to save money at a time of financial stringency by not repainting until the configuration was more settled.

 

But maybe somebody in authority - if not Gresley himself - had a bee in his bonnet and wanted to see what a grey livery on a big engine might look like, and this was a good opportunity to experiment.

 

Unless the matter was discussed in the documentation of the time, it all has to be speculation ...

 

 

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7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

It was exhibited at some pretty high profile events though. Especially the Liverpool & Manchester Railway centenary where it was one of the main exhibits.

 

This is the condition I expect it to be. Certainly doesn't look light grey. And worth considering the locomotive behind is black.

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/LNER-and-BRE-and-BRNE/LNER-post-grouping-locomotives/LNER-P2-W1/i-xPhZnHr/A

 

 

 

Jason

I’m not even convinced the loco and tender are the same colour in that picture !

 

Though looking at its curvy nature, where would a nameplate have gone on that , even the smoke box & cab sides are curve angled.. the only flat side I see is where the worksplate is!

 

Another option would be to rub 60009’s tender down to bare metal and see what shows through its layers, they found 70 year old Apple green on 60008’s wheels after all, ive got plenty of railwayana with layers of paint on through decades of service.. tender plates, water scoop plates etc are very revealing. 60009 is attached to 10000’s original tender.

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16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m not even convinced the loco and tender are the same colour in that picture !

 

Though looking at its curvy nature, where would a nameplate have gone on that , even the smoke box & cab sides are curve angled.. the only flat side I see is where the worksplate is!

 

Another option would be to rub 60009’s tender down to bare metal and see what shows through its layers, they found 70 year old Apple green on 60008’s wheels after all, ive got plenty of railwayana with layers of paint on through decades of service.. tender plates, water scoop plates etc are very revealing. 60009 is attached to 10000’s original tender.

 

The flats around the cab window do look to have higher reflectance than the tender. Also the tender sides look matt not satin or gloss used elsewhere.

What might of happened is the person making the print burned the tender to make the LNER logo stand out more and not look washed out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodging_and_burning

 

The moving footage shows uniform colour

 

 

 

 

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