New tooling - BR Standard 2MT 2-6-0 2MT 78xxx

[Wheatley]

I'm with Mr McCann on this one. I could do with one of these, two in fact, as 78016 and 78026 were signature locos for the line I'm modelling. I've had the DJH kit  almost finished for years, the continued delay to Hornby's means it's back on the bench for finishing off. 

 

And without wishing to re-open the "How much ?!!" debate, at £200 (at least) a pop I won't be adding the second one if and when Hornby ever get round to it. It can wait until I find a decent second hand Bachmann Ivatt and get the plasticard out. 

 

Unless Hattons end up with a load of overstocks wedged somewhere dark with the doors open and have to start discounting them, I'm out. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Wheatley

[D9001]

To be honest I do genuinely wonder if I will live to see it. 

 

[adb968008]

23 minutes ago, D9001 said:

To be honest I do genuinely wonder if I will live to see it. 

 

Thats a bit extreme its only 2 years.

 

the class 29 took around 7 years, the class 59 is heading into 6 years ( and the fully painted EP was 3 years ago), I ordered the steam railmotor 7 years ago.

 

I honestly cant see the current backlog being cleared in 2022.. theres simply too much and only so much factory space in China, so 2023/24 is a possibility for some stuff.

Edited November 23, 2021 by adb968008

[RyanN91]

On 20/11/2021 at 14:12, derekc said:

I am not surprised I suspect Winter 23 may mean January-March 2023.  I have a suspicion that Hornby 2022 range may simply be a whole load of reruns in new guises.  I wouldn’t argue with a GWR castle in shirt button livery and collet tender!

I'm probably in the minority here.

We know there are reasonable reasons for long delays for new models. Don't the long delays anticipate you more eagerly for them they do Me! The suspense the excitement and all that? I don't mind long delays it adds to the I wonder how such and such will look etc.

 

I assume the contents of the 2022 catalogue will all have fully arrived by January 2026! 

Edited November 23, 2021 by RyanN91
Missed info

[Paul.Uni]

According to the Hornby coming soon page:

January 2023: R3836 & R3838

February 2023: R3839

April 2023: R3981 & R3982

[RedgateModels]

On 23/11/2021 at 18:04, Mad McCann said:

He does, I believe. I should have stuck with Plan A in the first place.

Ah well, lesson learned.

 

Interesting, was not aware of this. Are they listed on their website or is it one of those hidden items that you have to inquire about?

 

I'd get a set to lay down for the future as doing a little modelling converting a Baccy Ivatt appeals more than just opening a red box

[D9001]

On 23/11/2021 at 22:50, adb968008 said:

Thats a bit extreme its only 2 years.

 

the class 29 took around 7 years, the class 59 is heading into 6 years ( and the fully painted EP was 3 years ago), I ordered the steam railmotor 7 years ago.

 

I honestly cant see the current backlog being cleared in 2022.. theres simply too much and only so much factory space in China, so 2023/24 is a possibility for some stuff.

 

Not really extreme given my age and my declining health. 

 

[Paul_sterling]

14 hours ago, D9001 said:

 

Not really extreme given my age and my declining health. 

 

 

No doubt you won't be alone in that thought D9001, sadly there will be others in the hobby and it's ageing demographic that miss out. 

 

I've said on a few discussions in respect of delays, if it was any other industry, most of the project leadership would get the boot for delivering a year or more late. I couldn't imagine the reaction if I had told Ford (In my previous job) that their new oil separator was going to be 2023 instead of planned summer 2021. 

[adb968008]

51 minutes ago, Paul_sterling said:

 

No doubt you won't be alone in that thought D9001, sadly there will be others in the hobby and it's ageing demographic that miss out. 

 

I've said on a few discussions in respect of delays, if it was any other industry, most of the project leadership would get the boot for delivering a year or more late. I couldn't imagine the reaction if I had told Ford (In my previous job) that their new oil separator was going to be 2023 instead of planned summer 2021. 

The car industry is a bad analogy….

They are suffering huge delays in components..

 

My neighbour went to buy a new car, (Mercedes) although the car advertised several onboard services, the car was delivered without them, due to lack of chips. The dealers response..shrug shoulders, take it or leave, with/without the price is the same, and they wont be retrofitted… They are struggling to get new cars delivered at all.

 

Things like this has seen my own car increase by more than £7k since 2020  due to shortage of components for new cars, and people are “walking away” to buy a second hand car with all the features.

 

I was planning a new car myself, but when I checked and confirmed above, I decided to hold another year.

You can bet cars will get chip supplies before model railways do.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by adb968008

[Paul_sterling]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

The car industry is a bad analogy….

They are suffering huge delays in components..

 

My neighbour went to buy a new car, (Mercedes) although the car advertised several onboard services, the car was delivered without them, due to lack of chips. The dealers response..shrug shoulders, take it or leave, with/without the price is the same, and they wont be retrofitted… They are struggling to get new cars delivered at all.

 

Things like this has seen my own car increase by more than £7k since 2020  due to shortage of components for new cars, and people are “walking away” to buy a second hand car with all the features.

 

I was planning a new car myself, but when I checked and confirmed above, I decided to hold another year.

You can bet cars will get chip supplies before model railways do.

 

 

 

Valid. However delays in the model rail industry are not new, delays in the automotive are. I recall a Nissan platform two years ago being delayed by six weeks internally, and that for Nissan, was a first, and the impact internally will have been massive. 

 

Land rover defender on the other hand... Erm....... 

 

PS. 

 

 

[D9001]

On 27/11/2021 at 09:21, adb968008 said:

The car industry is a bad analogy….

They are suffering huge delays in components..

 

My neighbour went to buy a new car, (Mercedes) although the car advertised several onboard services, the car was delivered without them, due to lack of chips. The dealers response..shrug shoulders, take it or leave, with/without the price is the same, and they wont be retrofitted… They are struggling to get new cars delivered at all.

 

Things like this has seen my own car increase by more than £7k since 2020  due to shortage of components for new cars, and people are “walking away” to buy a second hand car with all the features.

 

I was planning a new car myself, but when I checked and confirmed above, I decided to hold another year.

You can bet cars will get chip supplies before model railways do.

 

 

 

Yep, a friend of mine sold her year-old Audi a few weeks ago for £5k more than she bought it new for. 

[JSpencer]

On 27/11/2021 at 09:37, Paul_sterling said:

 

No doubt you won't be alone in that thought D9001, sadly there will be others in the hobby and it's ageing demographic that miss out. 

 

I've said on a few discussions in respect of delays, if it was any other industry, most of the project leadership would get the boot for delivering a year or more late. I couldn't imagine the reaction if I had told Ford (In my previous job) that their new oil separator was going to be 2023 instead of planned summer 2021. 

 

Model trains are small fry in the world of projects. I believe it was complaints about delays that lead Bachmann to the other extreme going "we are pleased to announce a Fairlie and it will hit the shops in 2 weeks" leading to complaints of "how am I supposed to save up for that so quickly?"

At the same, any project can be delivered on time, simply by skipping less essential parts. Half baked research will save loads of time and deliver you a model that somehow looks wrong. But it will probably be on time.

(and all this on top of the Covid fallout... I'm impressed at the quantity of trains coming through given how non essential they are).

Basically manufacturers cannot win or rather cannot please everyone.

[The Stationmaster]

Most model train delays are as nothing compared with the delays to some real trains - particularly Crossrail which on present information looks likely to be opening  its central section 4 or5 years late on various of the originally promised opening dates

[The Johnster]

I think that at least some portion of the delay complaints are down to Hornby's recent track record in apparently manipulating release dates to very aggressively compete with other companies' similar products, particular examples being the Terrier, to go head-to-head with Rails', the 5101/61xx, to attack Dapols', which was probably the reason Dap delayed theirs and brought out the Mogul first, though the Hornby 5101 had apparently been held back to allow earlier release of the aforementioned Terrier (and was probably, IMHO, originally intended for release at about the same time as the Collett 57' Suburban coaches), and the 4/6 wheeler generics, significantly at the same price as the Hattons model which we are still waiting for.

 

It is difficult to state that any of this as indisputable fact with any certainty, as we are rightly not privvy to executive decisions at Hornby; that's their business and within the normal and legitimate range of competitive business activity, but in a trade which is in generally relatively gentlemanly in it's behaviour.  But it does not reflect well on Hornby who may be seen as bullying and medacious because of it.  Not an easy balance, I imagine, as a too cosy relationship between companies will result in market manipulation, effective cartels, and monopolies,  There is, btw, absolutely no evidence whatever that the 78xxx has been involved in any such shennanigans that may or may not have actually taken place, and it's delay is probably a result of the known and undoubted disrupted, disorganised, and generally parlous condition of the world container trade, hit by a perfect storm of economic conditions, Ever Givens, and Covid.  But we have been conditioned to be wary of Hornby's activities in this respect, and if you are waiting for the model, you will be experiencing the same irritation and dissappointment that characterised my own famous saga with Bachmann and the 94xx, and it becomes difficult to maintain a rational attitude to the situation. 

 

What I learned from the 94xx saga was that it will arrive when it arrives, and it is not the responsibility of the company supplying the model to worry about how you will budget for it; people like me on pensions and with very restricted disposable income are a minority of their customers, and while we have particular problems with budgeting for big ticket items, and this may adversely affect our spending on other products when they are available, we are not important to the marketing or finance departments of these companies. 

 

At the beginning of 2020, Hornby announced a very ambitious program of new products which included the 78xxx and the 5101, much of which was in the shops very soon afterwards, and they were rightly praised for this speed of producing those items that did appear in a short period of time, like the Collett Suburbans, Terrier, and B2 Peckett.  Bachmann have since pulled off a similar stunt with the Double Fairlie, but H have run afoul of the delay fairy with some of their 2020 announcements, and even in normal circumstances it might have been a bit premature to announce the 78xxx, never mind the international shipping crisis that we have had in the intervening period.

[Steamport Southport]

But they beat both Dapol models to market by well over a year so any accusations of shenanigans are unfounded. The Terrier must have been virtually finished when Dapol announced their one. Despite what was shown on TV.

 

I had a Hornby Terrier in my mitts when Dapol was still showing CADs, ironically bought from Rails.....

 

 

 

Jason

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

But they beat both Dapol models to market by well over a year so any accusations of shenanigans are unfounded. The Terrier must have been virtually finished when Dapol announced their one. Despite what was shown on TV.

 

I had a Hornby Terrier in my mitts when Dapol was still showing CADs, ironically bought from Rails.....

 

 

 

Jason

I am led to believe that the Terrier Hornby produced (in order to take on Rails?)  -  and which was neither researched nor designed by Hornby - was sufficiently advanced to allow the final design work to production standards to be brought forward in order to produce the model in under a year should factory design, tooling,  and manufacturing, capacity somehow be made available.   Its design origins could fairly readily be recognised from photos of early samples which showed a feature shared with certain other locos which were not designed by a particular factory.

[Ian Hargrave]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think that at least some portion of the delay complaints are down to Hornby's recent track record in apparently manipulating release dates to very aggressively compete with other companies' similar products, particular examples being the Terrier, to go head-to-head with Rails', the 5101/61xx, to attack Dapols', which was probably the reason Dap delayed theirs and brought out the Mogul first, though the Hornby 5101 had apparently been held back to allow earlier release of the aforementioned Terrier (and was probably, IMHO, originally intended for release at about the same time as the Collett 57' Suburban coaches), and the 4/6 wheeler generics, significantly at the same price as the Hattons model which we are still waiting for.

 

It is difficult to state that any of this as indisputable fact with any certainty, as we are rightly not privvy to executive decisions at Hornby; that's their business and within the normal and legitimate range of competitive business activity, but in a trade which is in generally relatively gentlemanly in it's behaviour.  But it does not reflect well on Hornby who may be seen as bullying and medacious because of it.  Not an easy balance, I imagine, as a too cosy relationship between companies will result in market manipulation, effective cartels, and monopolies,  There is, btw, absolutely no evidence whatever that the 78xxx has been involved in any such shennanigans that may or may not have actually taken place, and it's delay is probably a result of the known and undoubted disrupted, disorganised, and generally parlous condition of the world container trade, hit by a perfect storm of economic conditions, Ever Givens, and Covid.  But we have been conditioned to be wary of Hornby's activities in this respect, and if you are waiting for the model, you will be experiencing the same irritation and dissappointment that characterised my own famous saga with Bachmann and the 94xx, and it becomes difficult to maintain a rational attitude to the situation. 

 

What I learned from the 94xx saga was that it will arrive when it arrives, and it is not the responsibility of the company supplying the model to worry about how you will budget for it; people like me on pensions and with very restricted disposable income are a minority of their customers, and while we have particular problems with budgeting for big ticket items, and this may adversely affect our spending on other products when they are available, we are not important to the marketing or finance departments of these companies. 

 

At the beginning of 2020, Hornby announced a very ambitious program of new products which included the 78xxx and the 5101, much of which was in the shops very soon afterwards, and they were rightly praised for this speed of producing those items that did appear in a short period of time, like the Collett Suburbans, Terrier, and B2 Peckett.  Bachmann have since pulled off a similar stunt with the Double Fairlie, but H have run afoul of the delay fairy with some of their 2020 announcements, and even in normal circumstances it might have been a bit premature to announce the 78xxx, never mind the international shipping crisis that we have had in the intervening period.

Sorry but it’s incorrect to say that Hornby produced its Prairie to head off Dapol’s version. Their version was already in preparation prior to Dapol’s announcement . 

[jimwal]

Maybe the BR 2-6-0 has been put back to focus on the new P2 which seems to had a fair bit of TV airplay recently . . . .

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Sorry but it’s incorrect to say that Hornby produced its Prairie to head off Dapol’s version. Their version was already in preparation prior to Dapol’s announcement . 

And I didn't quite say that, acknowledging at the start of the following paragraph that such ideas are unproven and unprovable.  But it played well enough into Hornby's hands that the delay to the 5101 in order to prioritise the Hornby Terrier, if that is in fact what happened, so that Simon Kohler's view that the Terrier was a Hornby locomotive and that the Rails version was somehow upsetting the apple cart (he stated this in the TV programme, and it seemed odd to me that he was being so proprietorial over a prototype inherited from Dapol via Replica, which can hardly occupy the same place in Hornby's culture and DNA as, say, Princess Elizabeth) enabled the loco to be used as a head to head competitor for the Dapol 5101, and it does seem that this influenced Dap to the extent that they prioritised their Mogul instead, to Hornby's benefit as the H 5101 was first to market, and many purchasers will not now consider the Dapol model as they already have the Hornby.

 

A sentence of that length would have appalled Graham Lewis, my high school English teacher.

[Ian Hargrave]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

And I didn't quite say that, acknowledging at the start of the following paragraph that such ideas are unproven and unprovable.  But it played well enough into Hornby's hands that the delay to the 5101 in order to prioritise the Hornby Terrier, if that is in fact what happened, so that Simon Kohler's view that the Terrier was a Hornby locomotive and that the Rails version was somehow upsetting the apple cart (he stated this in the TV programme, and it seemed odd to me that he was being so proprietorial over a prototype inherited from Dapol via Replica, which can hardly occupy the same place in Hornby's culture and DNA as, say, Princess Elizabeth) enabled the loco to be used as a head to head competitor for the Dapol 5101, and it does seem that this influenced Dap to the extent that they prioritised their Mogul instead, to Hornby's benefit as the H 5101 was first to market, and many purchasers will not now consider the Dapol model as they already have the Hornby.

 

A sentence of that length would have appalled Graham Lewis, my high school English teacher.

Fair enough. Your description of SK’s attitude as being proprietorial is the key here.Elsewhere on the forum I’ve described his “vision” as being Messianic. He’s a engaging bloke and Hornby is his life which is good for Hornby but entirely ruthless towards anyone who gets in the way of his precious child. A view of the recent tv series highlights that.

[Legend]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think that at least some portion of the delay complaints are down to Hornby's recent track record in apparently manipulating release dates to very aggressively compete with other companies' similar products, particular examples being the Terrier, to go head-to-head with Rails', the 5101/61xx, to attack Dapols', which was probably the reason Dap delayed theirs and brought out the Mogul first, though the Hornby 5101 had apparently been held back to allow earlier release of the aforementioned Terrier (and was probably, IMHO, originally intended for release at about the same time as the Collett 57' Suburban coaches), and the 4/6 wheeler generics, significantly at the same price as the Hattons model which we are still waiting for.

 

It is difficult to state that any of this as indisputable fact with any certainty, as we are rightly not privvy to executive decisions at Hornby; that's their business and within the normal and legitimate range of competitive business activity, but in a trade which is in generally relatively gentlemanly in it's behaviour.  But it does not reflect well on Hornby who may be seen as bullying and medacious because of it.  Not an easy balance, I imagine, as a too cosy relationship between companies will result in market manipulation, effective cartels, and monopolies,  There is, btw, absolutely no evidence whatever that the 78xxx has been involved in any such shennanigans that may or may not have actually taken place, and it's delay is probably a result of the known and undoubted disrupted, disorganised, and generally parlous condition of the world container trade, hit by a perfect storm of economic conditions, Ever Givens, and Covid.  But we have been conditioned to be wary of Hornby's activities in this respect, and if you are waiting for the model, you will be experiencing the same irritation and dissappointment that characterised my own famous saga with Bachmann and the 94xx, and it becomes difficult to maintain a rational attitude to the situation. 

 

What I learned from the 94xx saga was that it will arrive when it arrives, and it is not the responsibility of the company supplying the model to worry about how you will budget for it; people like me on pensions and with very restricted disposable income are a minority of their customers, and while we have particular problems with budgeting for big ticket items, and this may adversely affect our spending on other products when they are available, we are not important to the marketing or finance departments of these companies. 

 

At the beginning of 2020, Hornby announced a very ambitious program of new products which included the 78xxx and the 5101, much of which was in the shops very soon afterwards, and they were rightly praised for this speed of producing those items that did appear in a short period of time, like the Collett Suburbans, Terrier, and B2 Peckett.  Bachmann have since pulled off a similar stunt with the Double Fairlie, but H have run afoul of the delay fairy with some of their 2020 announcements, and even in normal circumstances it might have been a bit premature to announce the 78xxx, never mind the international shipping crisis that we have had in the intervening period.

 

I think its pure and simple . They've run out of manufacturing capacity . The capacity they thought they had has dried up due to covid continuing on , power shortages which have seen a two day week in some cases . They've been affected . Its not just the78XXX look at things like the Azuma . It'll not change until they secure more capacity when i think other model makers are also looking ! Might need some radical thinking .  Going to be interesting to see what the 10th January announcement brings . Will there be something close to completion or are we effectively looking at 2023/24 releases ?

 

Thing is their business strategy depends on getting these models into the hands of consumer . If they dont do that then they need a new business plan .  Have to say when it comes to delivering the goods its not really working .

Edited December 13, 2021 by Legend

[adb968008]

On 13/12/2021 at 10:28, Legend said:

Thing is their business strategy depends on getting these models into the hands of consumer . If they dont do that then they need a new business plan .  Have to say when it comes to delivering the goods its not really working .

I am surprised Hornby hasn’t gone more down the software route, theres a few avenues to explore here. Doesn't need China, can be fairly quick to develop if done right and with the right tech, comes with low cost and high margin.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by adb968008

[SteamingWales]

Not wanting to reignite the debate on delivery dates etc. so this is more of a observation

 

I note that much of the Hornby 2022 new toolings announced which seem to mostly only show photos of the real life prototype rather than CADs/3D prints/early samples etc. are due this year (some Summer 2022) whereas the 2MTs fully tooled with dec samples are just stuck in limbo!!!!! 

[rembrow]

Have reignited this thread, as I was surprised by the info in the May Hornby mag. In their new model guide, for Hornby, they state:

'Arriving as we closed for press were the upgraded A1/A3 4-6-2s with firebox flicker and diecast metal footplate, while the BR 2MT 2-6-0 is set for an April release. Next to appear will be the all new BR 9F 2-10-0 which is expected to arrive in August'

I've typed the full para to show the context is a sequence of releases this year. There is nothing on the Hornby site to confirm the 2MT has been brought forward. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

Just now, rembrow said:

Have reignited this thread, as I was surprised by the info in the May Hornby mag. In their new model guide, for Hornby, they state:

'Arriving as we closed for press were the upgraded A1/A3 4-6-2s with firebox flicker and diecast metal footplate, while the BR 2MT 2-6-0 is set for an April release. Next to appear will be the all new BR 9F 2-10-0 which is expected to arrive in August'

I've typed the full para to show the context is a sequence of releases this year. There is nothing on the Hornby site to confirm the 2MT has been brought forward. 

 

That's a surprise hopefully that includes the club exclusive 78022 in the first release. 

 

Could they be leaving the website to show the later delivery to make it appear they're early?