Hornby Announce a Re-tooled Class 91 for 2020

[MGR Hooper!]

14 hours ago, BritishRail60062 said:

I think I will be getting the Intercity model as it looks nice. Same in regards the VTEC and the "For the Fallen" models. The GNER and the LNER models don't interest me much but the VTEC interests me as it was the last livery I saw on the locomotive before I left England in 2017. Never got to see LNER in the flesh and I dislike GNER for reasons I will not share publicly. Therefore I will only buy three Class 91's .

 

As for the Mk4's. I think Hornby will do them next year because to be honest. It would be silly for Hornby to not make the carriages and DVT and only do the locomotive. Cavelex on the other hand should still consider proceeding on with their models. Why? Because it gives the consumer a choice - that's why .

I've gone for an IC one and the VTEC "For the Fallen".... let's hope some coaches make an appearance sometime soon.

[Hal Nail]

The argument that it makes sense to do the coaches is really only from a modellers' wish list perspective given people are buying the loco regardless.

 

Hornby would weigh up each investment on it's own merits: the 91 has to sell as a stand alone and similarly the coaches would have to generate more than any other product they could do instead. Not everyone upgrading the loco would automatically replace all their stock as well.

 

Ironically, someone else investing in the range of coaches could be seen as complimentary to Hornby's offering as would probably boost sales of their loco with no financial outlay on their part.

 

 

[Markn]

And then there's people like me who are happy with the Intercity livery and the mk3 DVT to run with his mk3  couldn't care less if they release mk4s or not 

[BritishRail60062]

6 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

I've gone for an IC one and the VTEC "For the Fallen".... let's hope some coaches make an appearance sometime soon.

2021 is likely the year they will show up Hayley. My true reason for some matching Mk4's is because I had some great memories of riding them up to 2017 when I was living in England .

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

The argument that it makes sense to do the coaches is really only from a modellers' wish list perspective given people are buying the loco regardless.

 

Hornby would weigh up each investment on it's own merits: the 91 has to sell as a stand alone and similarly the coaches would have to generate more than any other product they could do instead. Not everyone upgrading the loco would automatically replace all their stock as well.

 

Ironically, someone else investing in the range of coaches could be seen as complimentary to Hornby's offering as would probably boost sales of their loco with no financial outlay on their part.

Up to a point I agree with you mate. But for me, my reason of getting the Mk4's would be to have a complete IC225 train in the VTEC livery because I used to enjoy these trains until I left England in 2017. The VTEC was one of the best liveries that the ECML fleet wore as it was bright and it stood out more. You are right though, with excepts like my needs. It will mostly be modellers with a large layout and clubs that need the full rakes of new Mk4 stock that will buy them up upon release .

41 minutes ago, Markn said:

And then there's people like me who are happy with the Intercity livery and the mk3 DVT to run with his mk3  couldn't care less if they release mk4s or not 

Just like me mate. I will probably run my Hornby IC 91 with my Lima Mk3's and the dummy HST power car at the other end just for fun times as I mostly run my models trains as I see fit .

[cwam]

1 hour ago, BritishRail60062 said:

... I mostly run my models trains as I see fit .

 

*Gasps!* You hear about such people but you never think you will actually come across one - can't we have him banned or something?  

(from a fellow Norn Ironer!)

[newbryford]

On ‎24‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 12:00, Pete the Elaner said:

There has been talk of those services being handled by class 90s with Mk4s.

Apparently these have better acceleration, the WCML crews already have knowledge of them & the higher top speed of the 91s cannot be used on the WCML.

I don't think it has been finalised yet.

 

Going O/T.

Reported elsewhere.

90026 has been reinstated to use and has gone to Toton last week - to be painted in GC colours. 90020/21/29/39 to follow.

Edited January 25, 2020 by newbryford

[BritishRail60062]

On 25/01/2020 at 15:09, cwam said:

 

*Gasps!* You hear about such people but you never think you will actually come across one - can't we have him banned or something?  

(from a fellow Norn Ironer!)

I stepped out of line yesterday big time yesterday as when the Harp beer took a hold. I thought it was a good idea to use my Eurostar power cars with my rake of GWR Mk3's! . I will save the footage for April the 1st!

 

They always say "A little of what you fancy - does you good!" .

 

I'll get my coat. 

[NXEA!]

Whilst I prefer modelling the steam era for various reasons, my main interest day to day is in the recent and current rail scene. I don't usually get weak at the knees at models of more modern prototypes, but the promo shot of the 91 in IC Swallow looks the dogs danglies! It'll be very difficult for me not to free up some cash somehow and buy one. 

[MGR Hooper!]

On 25/01/2020 at 21:08, newbryford said:

 

Going O/T.

Reported elsewhere.

90026 has been reinstated to use and has gone to Toton last week - to be painted in GC colours. 90020/21/29/39 to follow.

 

 

Can't wait to see this. Do you know of the MK4 coaches and MK4 DVT will get the same GC treatment?

[FullRake]

I was curious to see how the new one compares to the old, so I took a picture of mine...

 

The body lines up with the old one perfectly, only the front buffers stick out further on the new one.

 

 

[Dixie Dean]

4 hours ago, FullRake said:

.. so I took a picture of mine...

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

[classy52]

8 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

 

The lower photo is the one you're going to get 

[Hilux5972]

45 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I'm sorry FullRake but I'm not clear as to what the upper model in the photo is?  Presumably the lower model is the current Hornby offering?

The upper image is Hornbys CG rendering for the new one. The bottom image is the current old model.

[Dixie Dean]

1 minute ago, Hilux5972 said:

The upper image is Hornbys CG rendering for the new one.

 

Thanks for that Hilux5972, I haven't seen that before.  TBQH it doesn't look half bad, but if it's the same pantograph as the 87 I'm not that impressed that it can't be posed.

[FullRake]

6 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

Thanks for that Hilux5972, I haven't seen that before.  TBQH it doesn't look half bad, but if it's the same pantograph as the 87 I'm not that impressed that it can't be posed.

Yes, the top picture is from Hornby's website.

 

Hopfully they update the coaches and DVT too. They should have updated the DVT at the same time and sell them as a pair like the HST and Hitachi 800 packs

 

 

[adb968008]

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by adb968008

[Andy Mac]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 

If Hornby re-run the ancient mk4 coach Tooling’s  for the new class91’s, then I think we can safely say, that we might have a new record/meltdown of negative comments here!

Personally, I’m holding off ordering the new 91’s till the coach situation becomes clearer...

[MGR Hooper!]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Its worth remembering that while the class 87 was introduced, the Mk3’s are still the same old same old...

 

Hornby arnt wet behind the ears, they will know that all they need to do its make the 91 and they can happily rake in a ton of revenue on the old mk4’s just by making a set of two in LNER colours... people are paying over £200 for the R3501 set..., 91’s are at peak popularity, they will scramble for LNER mk4’s old tooling or new.

 

it was a similar story on the HST power cars.. they squeezed every last livery out of the mk3’s before only now tooling the sliding door versions.

 

If they wanted to, as mentioned above, screw the fairings to the body, fit an NEM to it, and use the DVT bogie on the coaches.. job done, no better or worse than their current loco hauled mk3’s... and no ones complaining about them.

 

If I wanted a full rake, I'll happily accept a Mk4 DVT to the same standard as the Mk3 DVT and in terms of coaches I think Mk4 coaches at the same spec as their current newly tooled Mk1 coaches will be more than acceptable. 

 

Their older Class 91, Mk4 coaches and Mk4 DVT are some of the cheapest (quality, detail, overall finish) models I've ever seen. TBH they weren't even worth being in the Hornby Railroad range. I won't even compare the Mk4 coaches to the current Mk3 coaches, their current Mk3 coaches still look good and farily little needs to be done to actually bring them upto modern standards. The Mk4 coaches however need quite a bit of work done to modify them. The biggest drawback of them is the glazing, the swinging end skirts and accuracy.

[MGR Hooper!]

32 minutes ago, Andy Mac said:

If Hornby re-run the ancient mk4 coach Tooling’s  for the new class91’s, then I think we can safely say, that we might have a new record/meltdown of negative comments here!
 

Personally, I’m holding off ordering the new 91’s till the coach situation becomes clearer...
 

 

This poses a problem, if Hornby are looking at the sales of Class 91s to decide whether tooling up brand new Mk4 coaches is viable or not, then if people wait, we'll never get anything.

 

It's better to pre-order and lose nothing than to to not order and probaly not get anything after that.

 

Well for the sake of Hornby, I really do hope that people like Simon Kohler, Lyndon Davies and their R&D man Paul Isles are keeping an eye on this Class 91 thread. We already had an unwanted meltdown on the other thread fueled by emotion and lack of thought. If there's no Mk4 coaches and a new Mk4 DVT planned soon, there's going to be a bigger meltdown (though this time there's going to be a valid reason for it).

Edited January 28, 2020 by MGR Hooper!

[MGR Hooper!]

I also think that the comparison between the Hornby Mk3 coaches and Mk4 coaches isn't the best out there. Mk3 coaches have a much broader operational spectrum, you have HST trailers, you have loco hauled Mk3 coaches, Mk3 sleeper coaches and a whole range of special vehicles like the Network Rail vehicles and the Royal Train ones. Hornby's Mk3 coaches sat a level where small compromises was acceptable and they were always in demand. I think someone quoted Simon Kohler as saying the Mk3 coaches sold well and so they didn't see the need to update them. How many times have you seen Mk3 coaches from Hornby on the discount shelves vs. how many times have people been begging for re-runs because they sold out?

 

On the flipside, the Mk4 coaches are restricted to use with the Class 91 and a DVT, the only other time they ran elsewhere was probably on test or more recently I believe they're being used elsewhere. In terms of Mk4 coaches and their sales history, whenever they were sold separately to build up rakes (eg: East Coast sets) they lingered on for quite a while. It's only when Hornby did the VTEC sets a couple of years later that people had no source of Mk4 coaches to build up a set especially in the matching livery.

 

So I don't really think that saying Hornby never did proper Mk3 coaches for the HST power cars is a good basis for assuming Hornby will never do Mk4 coaches for the Class 91.

[Legend]

To be honest , I may be in the minority on here , but I’d initially be happy with a run of LNER mk4s from the existing  model . The paint job they would do is miles better than I’ve achieved and it would mean I can get a restaurant car and first class coach to complete the VTEC train pack I got . 4 or 5 coaches is about the max I can run .  I think there’s probably a large part of the market that would settle for this .   However I do appreciate that to have a top quality 91 people will want similar quality coaches to run with it, and there must be a substantial market there. Cavalex thought so ! 

[DY444]

On 24/01/2020 at 11:56, dogbox321 said:

 

Sorry if its already been mentioned, but theres soon the Grand Central to Blackpool with 91's and Mk4's too.  Plus who could resist a Class 91 in Europheonix   or 2?

 

Regards,

 

C

 

On 24/01/2020 at 12:00, Pete the Elaner said:

There has been talk of those services being handled by class 90s with Mk4s.

Apparently these have better acceleration, the WCML crews already have knowledge of them & the higher top speed of the 91s cannot be used on the WCML.

I don't think it has been finalised yet.

 

On 24/01/2020 at 12:37, dogbox321 said:

 

I were talking to a former colleague who works for Arriva GC the other day......  But like you say everything changes, and often will.  Until it happens....  For the CL 91's after LNER finish with them, very few places can use them to their full potential, but Blackpool to London with 2 intermediate stops will give them as good a run as anywhere I would have thought.

 

Regards,

 

C.

 

If it happens the Blackpool service is going to be 90s.  There have been reports of stored DB examples being prepared at Crewe IED for a potential return to traffic for the service.

[Hal Nail]

25 minutes ago, Legend said:

To be honest , I may be in the minority on here , but I’d initially be happy with a run of LNER mk4s from the existing  model . The paint job they would do is miles better than I’ve achieved and it would mean I can get a restaurant car and first class coach to complete the VTEC train pack I got . 4 or 5 coaches is about the max I can run .  I think there’s probably a large part of the market that would settle for this.

I'm not sure you are a minority based on responses on here so far.

[DY444]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

On the flipside, the Mk4 coaches are restricted to use with the Class 91 and a DVT, the only other time they ran elsewhere was probably on test or more recently I believe they're being used elsewhere.

 

 

Not strictly true as Mk4s have been regularly used with Class 90s on the ECML at various times and there are a number of recorded examples of Mk4s being hauled in service by Class 47s without a Class 91 attached including one on the Midland Main Line. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by DY444

[adb968008]

6 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

If Hornby re-run the ancient mk4 coach Tooling’s  for the new class91’s, then I think we can safely say, that we might have a new record/meltdown of negative comments here!

 

The forum melted down over the class 66’s.. but outside the forum it was demonstrated that people prefer a nice paint job on a lower priced model than high detailed and accuracy.

it would appear Hornby has gone laughing to the bank not once, but twice...

 

Its profit they are chasing ! Why spend in the region of $500k on toolings for a rake of coaches when the existing ones will sell at the same price if they wear the right pretty livery and has a few minor tweaks to achieve the same sales at the end of the game.. spend money wisely.

People will buy the older one, as long as they get the right livery at the right price, forum meltdown or not. Then once they've cashed that out, they could always look at tooling new versions in a few years time if interest still remains.

 

I still think the mk4 and 91 is a passing fad, not a long term bet, if the 91 fleet goes for scrap as has been suggested several times, interest will wane...Has the mk4 buffet any future beyond 2020 ? The risk is would a new tooling be delivered to get max demand before the interest has waned, given the long lead times.

Modellers are a fickle bunch, if they arrived in 2022 91’s will be a memory and modellers crying out for 455’s and other items going off for scrap that year.

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by adb968008