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Hornby Announce a Re-tooled Class 91 for 2020

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2 hours ago, gridwatcher said:

The 87 is a very mixed bag. Looks the part for sure but internally it is a dog's dinner, lighting is bonkers and the DCC provision and sound provision is lamentable. There isn't even enough room for Hornby's own decoder (non sound) to fit. I hope they have learned lessons and learned to listen to people who know this time around?


Anyway Hornby have already stated that from 2020 onwards their models will have space for a fairly large speaker and decoder.  This shows that they do listen. So all models henceforth (and hopefully others) will have this as standard. Now all we need to do is encourage Hornby to introduce a 21-pin DCC socket or Next-18 as standard.

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21 hours ago, Electrostar said:

As a 12 year old in 1988 I wrote to Hornby asking if their forthcoming class 91 – shown in the catalogue with an all white front end - would include a front coupling to allow for blunt end running. The answer was of course a no. I wonder if there’s an opportunity for the new model to include the facility? I appreciate BR’s original plans for the 91s to haul overnight parcels or freight trains (I think) with the blunt end leading never actually materialised but the number two cab has been pressed into service on a number of occasions since.

 

The 3D print has an NEM pocket at the front.

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2 hours ago, Trains4U said:

 

The 3D print has an NEM pocket at the front.


Got any closeups of the 3D printed Class 91?

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It's hard to tell if it's a sly snipe at the Cavalex project. It would be a fairly low risk way at taking a snipe. Many people who are looking to buy the Cavalex set I guess already have an older Hornby formation. Maybe many would be appeased by a better running dcc ready 91 v the cost of replacing their whole formation. And if sales were good, then there would be scope for new tooled mk4s and DVT. There has been speculation that Hornby have been sniping at a few new comes/crowd funding projects. As to if this is deliberate or just making what the market wants is hard to say. After all Hornby's marked research I believe suggested that a new tooled class 91 is what many people wanted (presumably to pull their existing mk4 stock rather than replacing their whole formations). 

 

Personally I run a 9 car formation with all old Hornby stock. My class 91 is re-motered with a 5 pole ringfield, full pick ups on every wheel and DCC. Runs fine DCC. The Intercity 225 is not a centrepiece formation for me. Hense why I avoided the temptation of the Cavalex model. I will therefore probably resist the new Hornby class 91 too (although tempted). After all its £160 I could put towards other models I'd prize more. How ever it has inspired me to see what I can do to my existing model to make it more realistic looking.

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Doesnt really add any more to what we know but Simon at Hornby is on a Hornby Mag youtube video interview and clearly states that their MK4's are far from confirmed at this stage. I think he said 'I never say never I never say yes, lets wait and see'.

 

So thats not too positive and dont seem to be doing too much to stop the many that are about to put pen to cheque towards Cavalex. Very much helps people decide to go that way I think now including me! I was on the fence before this as I sure whilst maybe not as good as the Cavalex version Hornby no doubt would come in a bit cheaper.

Edited by sanspareil

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I wasn't even aware of Cavalex as a manufacturer until Hornby announced the 91 and people started accusing Hornby of stealing the model from Cavalex. I really don't get why people are getting so angry and upset over Hornby tooling up a 91, at the end of the day they will do whatever there is a market demand for and won't do some obscure class with no market demand because it will just lose them money. Can we please get over it, Hornby are doing it and so are Cavalex. I don't think there needs to be all these arguments about who has the moral high ground. 

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Agreed Alex, but I find the Hornby strategy absolutely baffling. Announcing the Power car with no DVT/Dummy Car to match and then playing hide and seek with the MK4s. The initial reaction was that whoever got to market first would have the upper hand but maybe that won't be the case here. We shall see what happens but if Cavalex can move forward quickly they could well clean up.

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1 hour ago, Winter123 said:

Agreed Alex, but I find the Hornby strategy absolutely baffling. Announcing the Power car with no DVT/Dummy Car to match and then playing hide and seek with the MK4s. The initial reaction was that whoever got to market first would have the upper hand but maybe that won't be the case here. We shall see what happens but if Cavalex can move forward quickly they could well clean up.

Nothing baffling, a simple ploy to stop a new product.

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1 hour ago, Winter123 said:

Agreed Alex, but I find the Hornby strategy absolutely baffling. Announcing the Power car with no DVT/Dummy Car to match and then playing hide and seek with the MK4s. The initial reaction was that whoever got to market first would have the upper hand but maybe that won't be the case here. We shall see what happens but if Cavalex can move forward quickly they could well clean up.

May be they are planning the same gameplan as with the APT.  Sell the locomotive first, that way you know the max number of people who will want to buy the rest. which gives you a better estimate of how many to make, As with the APT there there will be no need to make more extra coaches than for the numbe rof units you sell to start off with. ( unless you will be able to add the new coaches to the old 80's model!

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1 hour ago, Vistisen said:

May be they are planning the same gameplan as with the APT.  Sell the locomotive first, that way you know the max number of people who will want to buy the rest. which gives you a better estimate of how many to make, As with the APT there there will be no need to make more extra coaches than for the numbe rof units you sell to start off with. ( unless you will be able to add the new coaches to the old 80's model!

 

I suspect it will be similar to what happened with the Coronation Scot loco and coaches, announced a few years after the loco. If Hornby weren't looking at doing the Mk4 coaches then the old toolings would be in this year's range to go with the new 91. 

The other possibility is that they are waiting to see if the real Mk4 coaches are modified in any way when they go to other operators so they can tool for these. 

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Well with the demise of the Cavalex project people possibly need to start to apply pressure on Hornby from every side and at every opportunity to raise their standards.  I for one felt very let down by the class 87 and in the end didn't bother buying any, and probably won't in the future if they don't pull their socks up a bit.

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Very sad to see the better model being with drawn from the Market.
All I will say to Hornby is

1st Cavalex have set the bar are you good enough to reach it. I dont think they are but time will tell.

2nd No matching new MK 4 or DVT = no sale. I not buying a new 91 and not having the coaches. So come on Hornby put your money were your mouth is.

John
 

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1 minute ago, oleander said:

No matching new MK 4 or DVT = no sale.

 

I must admit to never really looking at the Mk 4 coaches in any detail, I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done.  How do Hornby's existing Mk 4's standup?

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3 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I must admit to never really looking at the Mk 4 coaches in any detail, I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done.  How do Hornby's existing Mk 4's standup?

When the new loco comes out . You will see. Poor I would guess. Then You have the question of the special livery 91 no MK4 exist of thoes. So you end up with a Loco and no coaches . Cavalex had the better sultion . the whole train .

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4 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I must admit to never really looking at the Mk 4 coaches in any detail, I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done.  How do Hornby's existing Mk 4's standup?

 

Haven't been retooled since they came out in the 90s, no end coach was produced either. Still have the large D shaped tension lock couplers. 

Can pick them up for as low as £11 at the moment. https://www.hattons.co.uk/98174/hornby_r4666c_mk4_tso_second_open_12403_in_east_coast_livery/stockdetail.aspx

 

Its the same case as with the Mk3 coaches, retool of the power cars but no retool of the coaches. 

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31 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done. 

How did you know? From CAD’s? Someone else produced incredibly detailed CAD’s in recent and he is now gone from the model railway community. I have no doubt that his King would have been a great model, but does that mean I’m not happy with Hornby’s new King because it’s slightly less detailed? No not at all. 

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3 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

How did you know? 

 

From a lot of information I possess which is too extensive to explain here.  Of course this is dependant on the extent of detailing Hornby go to (front & rear lights, cab lights, fine detailed servo pantograph, etc), but on past performance I am not expecting a great deal.

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Indeed how Hornby approach the pantograph I think will be one of the first tests , and suspect will be an issue . But surely this 91 is severely compromised already without Mk4s 

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5 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

I must admit to never really looking at the Mk 4 coaches in any detail, I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done.  How do Hornby's existing Mk 4's standup?

Your talking about comparing coaches that were made 30/40 years ago for a train set market against coaches that were being proposed to modern standards?  How do you think they’d compare?

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4 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

How do you think they’d compare?

 

Well quite badly, of course, but how badly I didn't exactly know.

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54 minutes ago, Dixie Dean said:

 

Well quite badly, of course, but how badly I didn't exactly know.

 

 

Well Hornby give them new paint jobs and charge a premium for them !   As Andy says they are about from 35 years ago when Hornby detail standards weren't as good as now . They were used in trainsets so presumably are relatively cheap to make . I think they have one bodyshell for First and Tourist Class and another for Catering car . Over the years they were modified in real life by GNER , so I don't think the windows at the end of the train are accurate for anything post the GNER "Mallard" rebuild . They also don't model the end coach which has no corridor connection , it facing onto the class 91 rear cab . But perhaps the most obvious thing to modellers is that the end valance is part of the bogie rather than being part of the coach itself . Much like the Hornby Class 52 Western if you remember that . Built to go round train set curves.  I think that's one of the biggest compromises.

 

I bought a Virgin East Coast liveried train pack a few years ago which comes with two TSO Mk4s in VTEC livery (which for reasons above aren't accurate but have a nice paint job) . Unfortunately they didn't produce any single coaches . My solution was to get some old East Coast grey ones , which for a while were available from Hattons new for £11-£15 . I then clumsily repainted them . From a distance (like a mile!) its not bad  but I've never found anyone that does the first class blue stripe that fades either end .   So I was looking forward to some mk4s had they become available , although not into crowd funding at all.

 

My suspicion is that Hornby will simply relivery and release their existing mk4s

 

Edited by Legend
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11 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

 I just knew the Cavalex one's would be the best that could reasonably be done.  

 

10 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

How did you know? 

 

10 hours ago, Dixie Dean said:

From a lot of information I possess which is too extensive to explain here. 

 

I can't help but laugh when I read posts such as this. ' I'm going to win the argument because I know stuff but I'm not going to say what it is'

 

No one knows for sure just what sort of product was going up against the Hornby model, it could have been the bees knees or could have looked superb but run like a dog. 

 

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