LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[MartinTrucks]

Please pardon my ignorance, but are the BTK and FK the same as those already produced by Hornby?

Best regards,

Martin

[Pete the Elaner]

19 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Please pardon my ignorance, but are the BTK and FK the same as those already produced by Hornby?

Best regards,

Martin

Hornby have never produced correct Coronation Scot coaches before. They have instead produced standard Stanier coaches in Coronation Scot livery.

Those use in the 3 sets had modified roofs to incorporate the pressure ventilation equipment.

[Clive Mortimore]

4 minutes ago, MartinTrucks said:

Please pardon my ignorance, but are the BTK and FK the same as those already produced by Hornby?

Best regards,

Martin

Hi Martin

 

Basically yes, the main visual difference once your eyes have adjusted to the livery is the pressure ventilation ducting along the roof instead of the normal LMS type of ventilators. The interiors were more luxurious, the FK had only 4 seats per compartment instead of the normal 6.

 

On this drawing you can make out the ducting on the passenger coaches, the kitchen cars never had it.

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/new-for-2020/lms-stanier-d1960-coronation-scot-57-fk-1069-era-3.html

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, MartinTrucks said:

Please pardon my ignorance, but are the BTK and FK the same as those already produced by Hornby?

Best regards,

Martin

Here's my take on it originally posted on the announcement thread and linked on the previous page. I'll repost the main bit here for clarity.

 

D1905 57' BTK       

Modified from same coach as existing Hornby BTK R4232 etc.

 

D1961 57' BFK       

Coronation Scot version of D1910. not previously produced.

 

D1960 57' FK           

Coronation Scot version of D1930.  Hornby R4230 etc, although some have wrong seating layout. Some original issues are numbered in D1909 series which had 2 a side seating.

 

D1912 50' RK           

Coronation Scot version of standard D1912. Not previously produced.

 

D1902 65' RFO         

Coronation Scot version of standard D1902. Not previously produced.

 

D1981 57' RTO          

Coronation Scot conversion from D1904. Not previously produced.

 

The Coronation Scot coaches were taken from existing designs, Stanier coaches were pretťy high up the quality scale for the time.

The six kitchen cars were standard ones taken from the 1936 Gloucester RCW order with additional jumper cables at the ends.

IIRC twelve of the other cars were conversions of existing recently-built coaches that could be spared from traffic and nine new-build to existing designs with the addition of pressure ventilation covered by the duct referred to by Clive above.  

All were put into ordinary traffic after wartime storage and lasted into the 1960s.

 

Eric

 

[Aire Head]

So out of interest what conversion possibility is their from these coaches? What would be reasonably close?

[pinzaboy]

Hi

I note that reference has been made to extra jumper cables. Can anyone advise what these were used for?

 

Many thanks

 

Tim

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Aire Head said:

So out of interest what conversion possibility is their from these coaches? What would be reasonably close?

Hi

 

If you go back to Eric's post he gives the diagram numbers for the general service coaches the Coronation Scot coaches were converted from or in  the case of new builds what they were based on. They were luxury versions of the general service stock. So all potentially could be converted (model wise) back to the diagrams they are based on. Hornby already do the BTK and the FK. The RK, RTO, RFO and BFK are new bodies. The RK can be simply repainted into the livery of your chosen modelling period. The others would need the pressure ventilation ducting removed and ordinary ventilators fitted, and again a splash of new paint.

[Clive Mortimore]

I can't help thinking within a couple of years we will be able to buy the general service versions with normal roofs of all these coaches.

[5 C]

4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

If you go back to Eric's post he gives the diagram numbers for the general service coaches the Coronation Scot coaches were converted from or in  the case of new builds what they were based on. They were luxury versions of the general service stock. So all potentially could be converted (model wise) back to the diagrams they are based on. Hornby already do the BTK and the FK. The RK, RTO, RFO and BFK are new bodies. The RK can be simply repainted into the livery of your chosen modelling period. The others would need the pressure ventilation ducting removed and ordinary ventilators fitted, and again a splash of new paint.

Not all if any, of the 1937 coaches had their pressure ventilation removed. Ted Talbot's "The Coronation Scot" book has two images of RTOs 8993 and 9004 in 1956 and 1964 respectively, with the pressure ventilation still in place which makes them stand out in a rake of otherwise uniform stock.

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 06/01/2020 at 18:33, robertcwp said:

Indeed!  A nice surprise.

 

When modelling the Coronation Scot, always have the third class end next to the engine. The stock was turned after each trip. It may seem extreme, but look at the photos of the train in service (as opposed to on specials such as the record run and return). The third class end leads both ways. 

 

Hopefully, with all this new tooling, we shall in time see the carriages in the three other liveries in which they ran, i.e. LMS post-war, BR crimson and cream, BR maroon. The kitchen cars were entirely standard apart from the livery and would go well in many 1950s expresses. When they make them in BR liveries, assuming they do, I shall have at least two, plus most, if not all, of the other types. 

The LNWR ran their premier corridor services with the corridor on the western side of the train, so that passengers weren't subjected to strong sunlight during the journey. That required handed brakes for the end brake carriages, although there were some double ended brake diagrams. They had both Brake First , Brake Comp. and Brake Third versions .

 

Interesting that different periods may have put varying priorities in what they regarded as convenience for the First Class passenger.

 

 

[markw]

7 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi

 

If you go back to Eric's post he gives the diagram numbers for the general service coaches the Coronation Scot coaches were converted from or in  the case of new builds what they were based on. They were luxury versions of the general service stock. So all potentially could be converted (model wise) back to the diagrams they are based on. Hornby already do the BTK and the FK. The RK, RTO, RFO and BFK are new bodies. The RK can be simply repainted into the livery of your chosen modelling period. The others would need the pressure ventilation ducting removed and ordinary ventilators fitted, and again a splash of new paint.

You could probably create a 60' FO by chopping 5' from one end of of the RFO body and reduce the chassis to 60'.

[Invicta]

17 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I can't help thinking within a couple of years we will be able to buy the general service versions with normal roofs of all these coaches.

 

Agreed- although Hornby could take the easy way out and just offer postwar LMS, and BR-liveried versions of the ex-Coronation Scot coaches in future years, bearing in mind that the '37 Scot coaches were adaptations of stock originally introduced around 1933/4, it seems too much of an open goal not to tool these in a way that they can be produced without the pressure ventilation ducting on the roof, and add them to their range of general service LMS coaches in future years. 

[Clive Mortimore]

56 minutes ago, 5 C said:

Not all if any, of the 1937 coaches had their pressure ventilation removed. Ted Talbot's "The Coronation Scot" book has two images of RTOs 8993 and 9004 in 1956 and 1964 respectively, with the pressure ventilation still in place which makes them stand out in a rake of otherwise uniform stock.

Hi Andy

 

I mentioned in an earlier post about them being mixed with the general stock and retaining their ducting.

 

In the post you quoted I was on about converting the models into general service stock.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

35 minutes ago, Invicta said:

 

Agreed- although Hornby could take the easy way out and just offer postwar LMS, and BR-liveried versions of the ex-Coronation Scot coaches in future years, bearing in mind that the '37 Scot coaches were adaptations of stock originally introduced around 1933/4, it seems too much of an open goal not to tool these in a way that they can be produced without the pressure ventilation ducting on the roof, and add them to their range of general service LMS coaches in future years. 

Prototypes of the coaches concerned were produced c1933/4, with production runs 1934-9.

 

If I was doing the research and design for these models I would see if the roof cowl could be put as a separate part (assuming they follow the usual one-piece body/roof of the previous P3 coaches) so that it could be left off and the normal roof vents could be added on a later run.

I think that the TO would be an easy win if this is possible as it would then just need a new interior with 2+2 seating  to make a D1904 TO of which 116 remained after the nine were used for conversion to the RTO.

 

From the various accounts I think it is possible that they may all have entered normal service after a post-war repaint without any other alterations. Money and materials were tight at the time so nothing would be wasted on converting them back to an older spec. In those days if the wheels turned it ran, it took until the mid-1950s to flush out all of the pre-WW1 stock still in service.

 

Incidentally I remember a report, which I can't vouch for personally, that one of them even got nicked by the Western Region and was seen with a WxxxxM number. Anyone confirm?

Edited January 8, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

Regarding liveries of the general service equivalents, at least a few, I think D1902 RFOs for instance, received fully lined LMS livery when they first entered service.

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I can't help thinking within a couple of years we will be able to buy the general service versions with normal roofs of all these coaches.

 

That's my thoughts and certainly my hopes too!

[Clive Mortimore]

18 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

Prototypes of the coaches concerned were produced c1933/4, with production runs 1934-9.

 

If I was doing the research and design for these models I would see if the roof cowl could be put as a separate part (assuming they follow the usual one-piece body/roof of the previous P3 coaches) so that it could be left off and the normal roof vents could be added on a later run.

I think that the TO would be an easy win if this is possible as it would then just need a new interior with 2+2 seating  to make a D1904 TO of which 116 remained after the nine were used for conversion to the RTO.

 

From the various accounts I think it is possible that they may all have entered normal service after a post-war repaint without any other alterations. Money and materials were tight at the time so nothing would be wasted on converting them back to an older spec. In those days if the wheels turned it ran, it took until the mid-1950s to flush out all of the pre-WW1 stock still in service.

 

Incidentally I remember a report, which I can't vouch for personally, that one of them even got nicked by the Western Region and was seen with a WxxxxM number. Anyone confirm?

Hi Eric

 

From memory it was one of the RFOs. A picture appeared on this forum a couple of years ago where someone was asking what type of GWR coach it was. Then someone else noticed the M suffix to its number and everything fell into place.

 

I have just looked up all the types in the Longworth LMS and SR volume and none of the Coronation Scot coaches are noted by him as being transferred to the WR.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I can't help thinking within a couple of years we will be able to buy the general service versions with normal roofs of all these coaches.

LMS Open coaches have long been an 'Open Goal' in my admittedly biased opinion. 

Nearly 3000 were turned out between 1923 and the introduction of Mk1 stock. Nearly 1000 of these were in the 1933-39 period of the Coronation Scot types. Examples of most if not all lasted until the 1960s. One D1999 TO is believed to have actually received Blue/Grey livery.

The only thing we have on the market at the moment is the Bachmann Porthole FO of which 20 were built c1949. 

[rovex]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

If I was doing the research and design for these models I would see if the roof cowl could be put as a separate part (assuming they follow the usual one-piece body/roof of the previous P3 coaches) so that it could be left off and the normal roof vents could be added on a later run.

I think that the TO would be an easy win if this is possible as it would then just need a new interior with 2+2 seating  to make a D1904 TO of which 116 remained after the nine were used for conversion to the RTO.

 

 

 

Having the cowling as a separate part would make a lot of sense, I would expect that is how they would convert the standard ones which are already in the range.

 

Would certainly make conversion back or the production of the normal versions simple. The roof moulding could even have the holes for the shell vents - assuming -  which I don't know - they would be under the cowling.

 

Of course what you and I consider to be reasonable/sensible never seems to occur to mnufaturers.

[sandwich station]

I have a full set on pre-order from Hatton's.

[Free At Last]

47 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

I have a full set on pre-order from Hatton's.

Let's know what they are like when you get them.

 

[Denbridge]

On 06/01/2020 at 21:35, robertcwp said:

No one seems to know. It might have been to keep them away from the engine. Perhaps the pressure ventilation was inclined to suck in the exhaust?

In one direction they would be nearest the engine.

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

In one direction they would be nearest the engine.

 

Not if the full rake was turned like it has been suggested was done.

[Denbridge]

3 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Not if the full rake was turned like it has been suggested was done.

To clarify, I was referring to trains in general. Though I struggle to accept the whole train was turned after every trip.

[5 C]

4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Andy

 

I mentioned in an earlier post about them being mixed with the general stock and retaining their ducting.

 

In the post you quoted I was on about converting the models into general service stock.

 

Got confused in all the excitement Clive. Nevertheless, a ducted coach in post-war general service condition would be interesting to see just for a bit of variety. @Invicta whether it would sell in sufficient numbers for Hornby to release it in that guise I don't know but after Monday's announcement, never say never. I get the impression some buyers prefer all their rolling stock to be uniform in colour and appearance, even though the reality was very different,

 

That said, this announcement gives me something of a dilemma. I'm a big fan of "The Blue Train". I've cheaply acquired three of the previous model blue Coronations, with the intention of building an accurate set rather than using the wrong Railroad range based coaches. I have donor vehicles (current Hornby P3 Staniers), brass sides and in the case of the 65' RFO, the complete Comet kit. I've hesitated to start the job as to me, having a uniform end and roof profile throughout the set is important - it's very noticeable in period photographs. The Comet profile is a compromise: I recall Larry Goddard used his own etched ends and the Airfix/Dapol roof when using Comet sides. Overlaying onto the Hornby Staniers loses the depth of the narrow but distinctive roof gutter and they would be too wide.

 

The Hornby release will doubtless be matched to the current offering and its arguably more accurate rendition of the blue.  The position of the horizontal stripes may also be different from the earlier model.

 

Decisions, decisions. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by 5 C
Deletion of extraneous words.