LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[Aire Head]

My rake of 4 57 footers and a 60 footer comes out at just over 4 foot so 8 should easily take the Scot.

[sandwich station]

7 hours ago, 5 C said:

 

The record breaking run train only had eight coaches, rather than the nine used in regular service. The contemporary documentation doesn't record which coaches were used and in what order. From the photos it looks as though one of the kitchen cars was dispensed with.

 

I've seen it written somewhere that they only had one kitchen car for the run.

 

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, that was a saving on crockery.

 

Not really, as at the end of it's run coming into the station, she was still doing over 50mph and was put through a set of points to change line by mistake and all the crockery got smashed. 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, sandwich station said:

 

Not really, as at the end of it's run coming into the station, she was still doing over 50mph and was put through a set of points to change line by mistake and all the crockery got smashed. 

 

It is to that that I was alluding.

 

I rather doubt there was any mistake in the route coming into Crewe - if there had been that would be a matter of even greater concern than the excessive speed over three successive crossovers.

[robertcwp]

In Winter 1962-3, I am informed that the West Coast Postal stock was turned as follows at the Glasgow end: The ECS left Central station behind a station pilot with the train engine still attached in rear.  It did indeed head as though for the Cathcart Inner Circle but at Muirhouse Jn took the short spur to join the St Enoch - Kilmarnock line at Strathbungo Jn.  Stopping clear of that junction, it then reversed towards St Enoch, now headed by the train engine (explaining its retention).  On reaching Langside Jn, it took the curve down to Larkfield Jn, where it rejoined the WCML, but now in reverse formation.  To complete the story, it continued the short distance up the WCML until clear of Gushetfaulds Jn in order to reverse into Larkfield Carriage Sdgs for daytime stabling.  In the afternoon it simply reversed the procedure as far as Larkfield Jn where of course it carried on down the WCML back into Central station.

 

Thanks to Donald Sills for this information. 

 

I have no idea whether the Coronation Scot did something similar. Where would the stock have been cleaned and berthed overnight?

[TheSignalEngineer]

56 minutes ago, jf2682 said:

The kitchen car has standard roof vents, and in all photos I have seen the kitchen car is third in the consist (behind the engine), behind a brake and one other vehicle.  This is the third class end.  The first class end consists of three standard vehicles with the pressure roof vents, then a kitchen car. 

 

From the front the normal formation was BTK/RTO/RK/RTO/RTO/RK/RFO/FK/BFK. The missing coach on the inaugural run to Crewe appears to be thr front RK travelling North

[TheSignalEngineer]

I've been looking at the historical layouts around the Willesden area. It has to be remembered that between WW2 and 1965 the whole railway in that area was transformed. The loco shed and one carriage shed were on the site of the freightliner depot. The present DED and offices were another carriage shed and there was a third carriage shed where the scrap yard by West London Junction now stands.

The present carriage depot at Wembley didn't come into being until the early 1950s as a carriage cleaning shed.

 

Thinking of reversals the move I mentioned using in the 1980s couldn't be done at the time of the Coronation Scot as the bridge at Acton canal Wharf had disappeared at some point and was not restored until BR days. South West Sidings was not fully signalled until 1990 but was available to get from the carriage sidings on the Down side to Acton Wells and the High Level station.

 

Considering the options I think the most logical would be to go from the Down side carriage sheds through West London Junction to Mitre Bridge, reverse through the High Level platforms to Kensal Green Junction, reverse again via the City Lines to Willesden No.6 at Harlesden then reverse along the Up side to the sidings near the Low Level station. Depending on where the stock was cleaned and stabled the reversal could be done in either direction according to when during the night was the most convenient to do it. 

[Compound2632]

I suppose that with three sets, each set was laid over for a day at one end (Camden?) for thorough cleaning and preparation.

[sandwich station]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I rather doubt there was any mistake in the route coming into Crewe - if there had been that would be a matter of even greater concern than the excessive speed over three successive crossovers.

 

Well not by mistake but I read somewhere that it was diverted into another platform, as the road it was supposed to take wasn't clear.

[robertcwp]

14 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I suppose that with three sets, each set was laid over for a day at one end (Camden?) for thorough cleaning and preparation.

The Talbot book states the spare was kept at Wolverton. 

[robertcwp]

Page 89 of 'West Coast Steam' by Antony Darnbrough (IA 1988) shows a Coronation Scot BFK in crimson and cream, second carriage in the bottom photo on page 89. It is captioned as being in the 11.25 am Birmingham-Glasgow in May 1956 but described erroneously as being a brake third open.

[TheSignalEngineer]

According to a Wonkypedia article it says the First was always at the London end, but there is photographic evidence to the contrary. I've just been through another set of pictures and the only instance of the First at the London end on an Up train was a weekend in the summer of 1939 with a set in use on a 13 or 14 coach train. I suspect it was the Glasgow portion and had an Edinburgh portion added to the rear which I believe used to take place at Symmington in those days.

 

Out of interest the Wiki author also lists an LMS document "Coaching staff notice ERO 4522590-02" No idea what this is or whether a copy still exists in circulation.

[Pete the Elaner]

8 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

According to a Wonkypedia article it says the First was always at the London end, but there is photographic evidence to the contrary. I've just been through another set of pictures and the only instance of the First at the London end on an Up train was a weekend in the summer of 1939 with a set in use on a 13 or 14 coach train. I suspect it was the Glasgow portion and had an Edinburgh portion added to the rear which I believe used to take place at Symmington in those days.

 

Out of interest the Wiki author also lists an LMS document "Coaching staff notice ERO 4522590-02" No idea what this is or whether a copy still exists in circulation.

Wonkypedia is about right. updated by the general public, so it contains a lot of excellent information but also some which is innocently false.

The whole point of a wiki is that anyone can correct something which they see is wrong, so I have just done this for Coronation Scot's running direction.

[Cor-onGRT4]

Some colour films of the Coronation Scot

 

You can on some part see the first coaches behind the loco are BTK and RTO

 

And second one Golden age of steam at 4:40 the Coronation Scot

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYERL1YgulA

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Cor-onGRT4

[Downer]

Does anyone know the composition of BR’s ‘The Caledonian’ rake, and whether it will be possible to reproduce it with BR-liveried versions of the forthcoming Coronation stock?

[robertcwp]

24 minutes ago, Downer said:

Does anyone know the composition of BR’s ‘The Caledonian’ rake, and whether it will be possible to reproduce it with BR-liveried versions of the forthcoming Coronation stock?

The Caledonian varied over time. The only Coronation Scot carriage of use will be the kitchen car. In the early days of The Caledonian, the brake first was a 'porthole' so already available from Bachmann. Apart from the kitchen car, the remainder were BR Standard (Mark 1). Two open firsts (available from Hornby), originally three 48-seat open seconds (also Hornby) and a brake second corridor (Hornby or Bachmann). Some of the open seconds became 64 seat or side corridor ones if I recall correctly, and the BFK became a Mark 1 (not available RTR). Later, the kitchen car became Mark 1 too although if I recall correctly towards the end of the train's life, it had an RKB. 

[robertcwp]

14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

According to a Wonkypedia article it says the First was always at the London end, but there is photographic evidence to the contrary. I've just been through another set of pictures and the only instance of the First at the London end on an Up train was a weekend in the summer of 1939 with a set in use on a 13 or 14 coach train. I suspect it was the Glasgow portion and had an Edinburgh portion added to the rear which I believe used to take place at Symmington in those days.

 

Out of interest the Wiki author also lists an LMS document "Coaching staff notice ERO 4522590-02" No idea what this is or whether a copy still exists in circulation.

I have not seen that notice but was aware of it. Something must have changed because, if the date is accurate, the photo of the inaugural up service in the second Talbot book shows third class leading. Given the immaculate condition of 6221, I can well believe it is the first run. I had another look at the books today and images of the early service runs (ie when the carriages carried separate roof boards - actually just below cantrail on LMS stock) show the third class is leading both ways.

[TheSignalEngineer]

25 minutes ago, jf2682 said:

The Talbot book shows the kitchen cars as having 8' bogies, and I have a side elevation official photo which in my view tends to support this.  However, it seems to be generally accepted that they were 9 '.  Probably best to resolve this before its too late...

 

John

Good question. None of my books show the answer but the predecessor to the P3 version (D1697?) has 9' bogies on the Jenkinson drawing I have.

[robertcwp]

3 hours ago, jf2682 said:

Hopefully it's  a typo.  I've never heard of 8' LMS bogies.

 

On another tack, having started re-reading material on the blue streamliners, there is a comment in The Power of the Duchesses that the blue engines were always used for the ' Scot, whenever possible.  Does this infer that there were exception?  That would be interesting to see, the 'Scot pulled by a non-streamlined Duchess, or even a red streamliner!  I haven't seen any photos showing this though.  Can anyone assist?

 

2682

The Talbot books note a few replacements when there was a failure en route. There is also one photo of a red streamliner on the train. There are photos of non-streamlined engines on the stock when in use on Saturday trains.

[MikeParkin65]

11 hours ago, jf2682 said:

Hopefully it's  a typo.  I've never heard of 8' LMS bogies.

 

On another tack, having started re-reading material on the blue streamliners, there is a comment in The Power of the Duchesses that the blue engines were always used for the ' Scot, whenever possible.  Does this infer that there were exception?  That would be interesting to see, the 'Scot pulled by a non-streamlined Duchess, or even a red streamliner!  I haven't seen any photos showing this though.  Can anyone assist?

 

2682

Plate 52 of the aforementioned Power of the Duchesses shows red single chimney 6231 with a Saturday Midday Scot with the Coronation Scot coaches behind the loco as part of a longer set. 

[Wickham Green]

23 hours ago, jf2682 said:

Hopefully it's  a typo.  I've never heard of 8' LMS bogies.

Indeed - there was no such thing as a standard 8' LMS bogie ................. plenty of pre-group coaches had 8' bogies but it's highly unlikely pairs of those would have found their way under the Kitchen Cars.

[Pete the Elaner]

43 minutes ago, jf2682 said:

Yes indeed, I have seen that particular plate, and as RobertCWP notes, the blue CS train was used on Saturday-only trains in combination with standard LMS coaches.

I would however like to see a photo of a red streamliner with the blue 'Scot, or at least be pointed to a hard copy if there is a copyright issue with posting it here.

 

John

A black & white one of 6229 Duchess of Hamilton doesn't count.

Most of us are aware it was actually a blue 6220 Coronation in disguise. 

[maico]

On 07/01/2020 at 17:26, MikeParkin65 said:

I think these are clever marketing by Hornby as they will also help to shift streamlined Duchesses which so far dont seem to have been flying off the shelves. I suggest those interested might want to start hunting down currently discounted blue streamliners which are looking like bargains compared to the forthcoming 6220.

 

What is the difference?  It says new tool on the Hornby site but the pictures used are the same...

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by maico

[Wickham Green]

They lost the screwdriver for the bogie screw so had to buy a new one.

[robertcwp]

On 05/02/2020 at 14:22, maico said:

 

What is the difference?  It says new tool on the Hornby site but the pictures used are the same...

 

 

The model of 6224 has a double chimney, which was only fitted to the real thing in 1940, so would not be appropriate for the Coronation Scot. 

 

Edit: if you look carefully at the images, they are different as the double chimney reaches as far forward as the seam whereas the single one does not.

Edited February 6, 2020 by robertcwp
Additional information.

[robmcg]

indeed the chimneys are different, I have a 6221 and 6224 soon to arrive so any other differences will be of interest.

 

6221

 

 

6224