LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[LNER4479]

My set safely collected today and posed in a suitable setting (if you ignore the cars and colour light signal):

 

 

 

The RFO is a particularly eye-catching vehicle

 

 

With thanks to Redcar Models who ordered these for me and delivered without any fuss.

Edited April 16, 2021 by LNER4479

[5 C]

6 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

My set safely collected today and posed in a suitable setting (if you ignore the cars and colour light signal):

 

 

 

The RFO is a particularly eye-catching vehicle

 

 

With thanks to Redcar Models who ordered these for me and delivered without any fuss.

 And thank you for satisfying my curiosity about how a previous generation loco looks alongside this set. Pretty good I'd say.

[atom3624]

13 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

My set safely collected today and posed in a suitable setting (if you ignore the cars and colour light signal):

 

 

 

The RFO is a particularly eye-catching vehicle

 

 

With thanks to Redcar Models who ordered these for me and delivered without any fuss.

Looks great.

There's mention of drag with the finger pickups on the axles.

Can it comfortably pull the rake of 9 coaches without excessive wheelslip?

Al.

[LNER4479]

6 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Looks great.

There's mention of drag with the finger pickups on the axles.

Can it comfortably pull the rake of 9 coaches without excessive wheelslip?

Al.

Aha! I wondered when someone was going to ask that question.

 

Straight out of the box - no. And bear in mind, we're talking a 1-in-90 gradient here (a slight compromise on what should be 1-in-75)

 

To be fair, I literally took them out of the box and plonked them on the layout for photography last night. Interestingly, the first two quite happily ran away down the gradient when I first put them on ... but not all of them. A very quick look showed that some of the wheelsets rotated easier than others so I think it's all down to the relative pressure of each pick-up on the wheels. What I'll do is to try each in turn and 'tweak' any excessive pick-up pressure until I get them all rolling away down the bank. For me, the lights are a bit of a gimmick if I'm honest. If worst comes to the worst I'll disable them - I'm not sure if they'd be that apparent in an exhibition environment?

 

Alternatively - or as well - there's plenty of room under the 'bath tub' to add extra weight! I'm not unduly worried.

[sandwich station]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

 

Alternatively - or as well - there's plenty of room under the 'bath tub' to add extra weight! I'm not unduly worried.

 

 

Which Coronation is it, the latest one?

[LNER4479]

No, it's the one before (R2271 to be exact) - I had to economise somewhere! A bit of blinging required to get it up to standard but I quite enjoy doing that.

[5 C]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

No, it's the one before (R2271 to be exact) - I had to economise somewhere! A bit of blinging required to get it up to standard but I quite enjoy doing that.

Looking forward to seeing the results of the "blinging". I have three to do.

[Pete the Elaner]

14 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Aha! I wondered when someone was going to ask that question.

 

Straight out of the box - no. And bear in mind, we're talking a 1-in-90 gradient here (a slight compromise on what should be 1-in-75)

 

To be fair, I literally took them out of the box and plonked them on the layout for photography last night. Interestingly, the first two quite happily ran away down the gradient when I first put them on ... but not all of them. A very quick look showed that some of the wheelsets rotated easier than others so I think it's all down to the relative pressure of each pick-up on the wheels. What I'll do is to try each in turn and 'tweak' any excessive pick-up pressure until I get them all rolling away down the bank. For me, the lights are a bit of a gimmick if I'm honest. If worst comes to the worst I'll disable them - I'm not sure if they'd be that apparent in an exhibition environment?

 

Alternatively - or as well - there's plenty of room under the 'bath tub' to add extra weight! I'm not unduly worried.

 

I concur.

I have tried it with 3 of the previous generation Coronations; 2 blue streamliners & Duchess of Abercorn (although i am not sure any non-streamliner every worked with it, although it was the first of the class to receive a double chimney, so possibly...).

The coaches are a bit draggy, so I wondered if they would pull it. They do, but with a lot of wheelslip. The curves on the line I ran it on were not too tight, but the wheels were visibly spinning a lot faster than the loco was moving.

I have some car wheel balance weights somewhere & as already mentioned, tehre is plenty of space inside the bodyshell. I wonder how much I need to provide enough adhesion?

It is too late to be fiddling with that tonight!

[robertcwp]

10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I concur.

I have tried it with 3 of the previous generation Coronations; 2 blue streamliners & Duchess of Abercorn (although i am not sure any non-streamliner every worked with it, although it was the first of the class to receive a double chimney, so possibly...).

The coaches are a bit draggy, so I wondered if they would pull it. They do, but with a lot of wheelslip. The curves on the line I ran it on were not too tight, but the wheels were visibly spinning a lot faster than the loco was moving.

I have some car wheel balance weights somewhere & as already mentioned, tehre is plenty of space inside the bodyshell. I wonder how much I need to provide enough adhesion?

It is too late to be fiddling with that tonight!

Do you have gradients on your layout?

 

Mine does not and my 6221 could haul the train without any problems but it is one of the newer models.

[Kraken]

I picked up my set of nine from my local model shop on Tuesday. Look fantastic but very draggy with the odd derailment as a result. I set them up on my 'down' line, which does have a relatively tight exit from the fiddle yard then up a short 2% gradient.  6221 (latest version) made it OK as long as she was doing >30-40% speed, but with a certain amount of wheel slip. She ground to a halt if she tried to crawl up slowly.

I discovered on about 6 of the 9 coaches there seemed to be one or two sets of wheels that were very resistant, and a couple that barely turned at all. The wheels have recessed holes on the back of them, and I think in some cases the end of the pickups can sometimes catch in these and lock the wheel.

In most cases easing the pickups away from the wheels slightly helped (but there is a careful balance between reducing drag and maintaining the electrical contact) and once this was done, 6221 could pull the full rake up the short incline at a slower speed, but still wheel slipping.

 

However the main issue I'm having is on the 2 kitchen cars where no amount of adjusting pickups seems to make a difference, and it seems to me that the wheels have a lot of play and as a result the whole axle is in contact with the underside of the bogie, creating a lot of resistance.  Haven't worked out how to resolve yet, but I'll keep fiddling.

It would be interesting to know if anybody else has found this and has a solution?

 

Thanks

Edited April 18, 2021 by Kraken

[LNER4479]

I do think that the newer Hornby Duchess models have better pulling power - we have two available for Shap (46232 and 46256) and both will pull more than their older sisters. But I struggle to understand why!? The mechanisms are more or less the same and they weigh about the same.

 

I heard a theory about better wheel profiles on the newer locos? Anyhow, this thread is supposed to be about coaching stock!

Edited April 19, 2021 by LNER4479

[robertcwp]

2 hours ago, Kraken said:

I picked up my set of nine from my local model shop on Tuesday. Look fantastic but very draggy with the odd derailment as a result. I set them up on my 'down' line, which does have a relatively tight exit from the fiddle yard then up a short 2% gradient.  6221 (latest version) made it OK as long as she was doing >30-40% speed, but with a certain amount of wheel slip. She ground to a halt if she tried to crawl up slowly.

I discovered on about 6 of the 9 coaches there seemed to be one or two sets of wheels that were very resistant, and a couple that barely turned at all. The wheels have recessed holes on the back of them, and I think in some cases the end of the pickups can sometimes catch in these and lock the wheel.

In most cases easing the pickups away from the wheels slightly helped (but there is a careful balance between reducing drag and maintaining the electrical contact) and once this was done, 6221 could pull the full rake up the short incline at a slower speed, but still wheel slipping.

 

However the main issue I'm having is on the 2 kitchen cars where no amount of adjusting pickups seems to make a difference, and it seems to me that the wheels have a lot of play and as a result the whole axle is in contact with the underside of the bogie, creating a lot of resistance.  Haven't worked out how to resolve yet, but I'll keep fiddling.

It would be interesting to know if anybody else has found this and has a solution?

 

Thanks

I have not yet investigated fully but my two kitchen cars don't move at all freely.

[markw]

I found the side of several pickups were rubbing against the plastic wheel bush, bending them further away from the axle helped.

[JaymzHatstand]

Yes, with a dried inspection of a couple of vehicles, the pickup could be heard catching on some wheels/axle stubs, so a session of adjustment will be required. I'll do that when I take the weeks out to paint them black anyway, which is something I usually do with RTR coaches, and it really improves the look of the running gear.

 

Other than that, I'm thoroughly impressed with the quality of the coaches, especially for the price. The attention to detail is superb and the level of decoration is far beyond anything I could hope to achieve had I ever got around to making my own set! 

 

17 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

although i am not sure any non-streamliner every worked with it

 

There's a photo in one of my books (possibly Power of the Duchesses) showing Atholl with the CS set in tow, along with a number of other vehicles. I can't remember the exact circumstances, but it's definitely an allowable occurrence of not a common one!

 

Cheers

 

J

Edited April 18, 2021 by JaymzHatstand
Spelling

[robmcg]

On 17/04/2021 at 08:24, LNER4479 said:

My set safely collected today and posed in a suitable setting (if you ignore the cars and colour light signal):

 

 

 

The RFO is a particularly eye-catching vehicle

 

 

With thanks to Redcar Models who ordered these for me and delivered without any fuss.

 

If these lovely carriages are still 'out' on Shap I'd love to 'do' a photo like the one we concocted of 60161 a month ago...

 

 

Cheers

 

edit, I have done a few pics of the current Princess Coronation models but used the old carriages, and a lot of artistic licence!

 

 

 

picture edited will remove if required.

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by robmcg
correction, addition

[MikeParkin65]

6 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I have not yet investigated fully but my two kitchen cars don't move at all freely.

I had a couple of very draggy Stanier suburbans which share the same bogie sans the lighting pick up. I cured both with a quick spin using the DCC concepts pin point ‘bearing’ reamer. 

[robertcwp]

5 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I had a couple of very draggy Stanier suburbans which share the same bogie sans the lighting pick up. I cured both with a quick spin using the DCC concepts pin point ‘bearing’ reamer. 

I have one of those tools too but haven't had to use it on any of my other Hornby Stanier stock, of which I have lots. I shall begin with pickups then try the reamer if necessary.

[MikeParkin65]

9 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I have one of those tools too but haven't had to use it on any of my other Hornby Stanier stock, of which I have lots. I shall begin with pickups then try the reamer if necessary.

Me neither, I was surprised at having to use it on the suburbans. Bought 4 from Kernow,  2 free runners as expected, the other 2 draggy. 

[atom3624]

It will be interesting to see how much 'drag' can be relieved, and how.

Is it the pickups?

Are there any other mouldings catching?

Is there any way of making them all reasonably free-running?

 

Al.

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Do you have gradients on your layout?

 

No. It is flat. I will look at all coaches individually for free-running then consider weights inside the loco.

 

Another thought: the obvious pairing is with a streamlined loco, which has lots of space for extra weights. What happened at Euston & Glasgow? It has previously been discussed that the sets were turned to put 1st class at the rear, but what locos were used for this duty? A black 5? A pair of Jinty's?

[atom3624]

I aim for a total weight ~580-630g with the 'big pacifics', loco + tender.

Ideally as these locos were 95-110 tons, and the tenders 35-55 tons depending on size and water / coal remaining, I aim for the tenders to be ~40% the weight of the locomotive, typically ~180-200g.

 

The Coronations and the streamlined Bulleids are always the easiest.

Some it's not necessary / not possible in the locomotives, like the Britannias.

 

Al.

[JaymzHatstand]

On 15/04/2021 at 18:31, robertcwp said:

Although I know the formation, I need to sort out the orientation of the individual carriages, as I don't know that apart from the brakes at each end.

 

I'm not sure if you've got this sorted yet, but I shall attempt to describe it for you (and anyone else!)

 

Loco

Corridor Brake Third (brake end leading, corridor on right)

Vestibule Third (single seats on left)

Kitchen Car (corridor on left)

Vestibule Third X2 (as above)

Kitchen Car (as above)

Vestibule First Diner (single seats on right)

Corridor First (corridor on left)

Corridor First Brake (brake end trailing, corridor on left)

 

I hope this is of use. There is a full diagram in the LMS 150 book by Patrick Whitehouse and David St John Thomas. I imagine it'll appear elsewhere too, but obviously copyright prevents me posting it here.

 

Cheers

 

J

[Pete the Elaner]

3 minutes ago, JaymzHatstand said:

 

I'm not sure if you've got this sorted yet, but I shall attempt to describe it for you (and anyone else!)

 

Loco

Corridor Brake Third (brake end leading, corridor on right)

Vestibule Third (single seats on left)

Kitchen Car (corridor on left)

Vestibule Third X2 (as above)

Kitchen Car (as above)

Vestibule First Diner (single seats on right)

Corridor First (corridor on left)

Corridor First Brake (brake end trailing, corridor on left)

 

I hope this is of use. There is a full diagram in the LMS 150 book by Patrick Whitehouse and David St John Thomas. I imagine it'll appear elsewhere too, but obviously copyright prevents me posting it here.

 

Cheers

 

J

 

It is useful. The order of the coaches is listed on Wikipedia, but not which way around they faced.

I guess I could update it, but maybe not right now.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, JaymzHatstand said:

Loco

Corridor Brake Third (brake end leading, corridor on right)

Vestibule Third (single seats on left)

Kitchen Car (corridor on left)

Vestibule Third X2 (as above)

Kitchen Car (as above)

Vestibule First Diner (single seats on right)

Corridor First (corridor on left)

Corridor First Brake (brake end trailing, corridor on left)

 

I suppose it's obvious if you've got the brake carriages to hand but by left and right do you mean from the point of view of an observer facing the direction of travel? 

[phil-b259]

On 15/04/2021 at 20:55, markw said:

They are the Hornby Roco style included with the coaches, modified to slide further into the NEM pocket then drilled and pinned to hold them at the correct distance. I use them fitted upside down.

 

Or you could simply use the Genuine Roco ones!

 

The Genunie Roco ones are a couple of mm shorter than the Hornby ones but both types will couple together so mix and matching is possible if back to back Rocos are to short but back to back Hornby clones are too long.