LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, JaymzHatstand said:

 

I'm not sure if you've got this sorted yet, but I shall attempt to describe it for you (and anyone else!)

 

Loco

Corridor Brake Third (brake end leading, corridor on right)

Vestibule Third (single seats on left)

Kitchen Car (corridor on left)

Vestibule Third X2 (as above)

Kitchen Car (as above)

Vestibule First Diner (single seats on right)

Corridor First (corridor on left)

Corridor First Brake (brake end trailing, corridor on left)

 

I hope this is of use. There is a full diagram in the LMS 150 book by Patrick Whitehouse and David St John Thomas. I imagine it'll appear elsewhere too, but obviously copyright prevents me posting it here.

 

Cheers

 

J

Thanks, I found the diagram you are referring to in the Edward Talbot book.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

No. It is flat. I will look at all coaches individually for free-running then consider weights inside the loco.

 

Another thought: the obvious pairing is with a streamlined loco, which has lots of space for extra weights. What happened at Euston & Glasgow? It has previously been discussed that the sets were turned to put 1st class at the rear, but what locos were used for this duty? A black 5? A pair of Jinty's?

 

Jinties were common in London, but were pretty rare north of the border. They probably used ex CR locomotives.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

What were the usual engines for working empty stock in and out of Euston? I've an idea that by the late 30s some ex-Midland 2Fs had been drafted in to replace ex-LNWR 0-6-0s, possibly Cauliflowers.

[Steamport Southport]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

What were the usual engines for working empty stock in and out of Euston? I've an idea that by the late 30s some ex-Midland 2Fs had been drafted in to replace ex-LNWR 0-6-0s, possibly Cauliflowers.

 

By the late 1930s it would have been Jinties. Loads of them in London with a couple of dozen allocated to Camden which was the passenger shed for Euston. With more at Willesden and Kentish Town. Willesden was the freight shed.

 

https://brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=112

 

One of the reasons the majority were fitted with vacuum brakes and steam heat was so they could be used for station pilot work.

 

 

Jason

[markw]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Or you could simply use the Genuine Roco ones!

 

The Genunie Roco ones are a couple of mm shorter than the Hornby ones but both types will couple together so mix and matching is possible if back to back Rocos are to short but back to back Hornby clones are too long.

You could if Hornby had spaced the NEM sockets correctly, two Roco won't couple, one Roco and one Hornby still leave a gap.

[phil-b259]

8 minutes ago, markw said:

You could if Hornby had spaced the NEM sockets correctly, two Roco won't couple, one Roco and one Hornby still leave a gap.

 

 

My ordinary Stainers used the one Roco + one Hornby setup without a gap.

[atom3624]

Am I right in saying that inserting the alternative 'Roco-type' connectors does not permit any 'movement' between coaches?

 

Reason I ask, is that if there's a problem pulling away from a station, they're all coupled 'as one', instead of the slight concertina of the normal couplings, which should permit an easier departure.

 

Al.

[Compound2632]

44 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

By the late 1930s it would have been Jinties. Loads of them in London with a couple of dozen allocated to Camden which was the passenger shed for Euston. With more at Willesden and Kentish Town. Willesden was the freight shed.

 

https://brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=112

 

One of the reasons the majority were fitted with vacuum brakes and steam heat was so they could be used for station pilot work.

 

Other reasons being that they were used to work the North London line suburban services out of Broad Street.

 

The 2F thing comes, I think, from articles by Keith Miles in LMS Journal - I'll have to dig those out. He was probably describing the post-wat situation, in which case I still think ex-LNWR Cauliflowers were used in the 30s. I will report back.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Compound2632

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

Am I right in saying that inserting the alternative 'Roco-type' connectors does not permit any 'movement' between coaches?

 

 

Correct!

 

However close coupling mechanisms (as fitted to all high spec coach models) ONLY work properly with rigid couplers that don't have slack. Any slack in the coupling risks the CCMs on each coach going out of line and causing derailments.

 

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

 

Reason I ask, is that if there's a problem pulling away from a station, they're all coupled 'as one', instead of the slight concertina of the normal couplings, which should permit an easier departure.

 

 

I would also point out that on prototype passenger trains there should not be noticeable amounts of slack anyway as this makes for an uncomfortable ride. Coaches would be coupled with buffers touching and using a screw coupling tightened up to remove any slack (LMS & GWR designs)) or via rigid Buckeye couplers (SR, LNER and BR designs).

[Barry O]

2 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

I would also point out that on prototype passenger trains there should not be noticeable amounts of slack anyway as this makes for an uncomfortable ride. Coaches would be coupled with buffers touching and using a screw coupling tightened up to remove any slack (LMS & GWR designs)) or via rigid Buckeye couplers (SR, LNER and BR designs).

I thought on BR Mark 1s at least your retract the buffers as the buckeyes do most of the work  if you use screw couplings you let the buffers come out to their "normal" length then screw up tight..

 

Baz

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Barry O said:

I thought on BR Mark 1s at least your retract the buffers as the buckeyes do most of the work  if you use screw couplings you let the buffers come out to their "normal" length then screw up tight..

 

That's what @phil-b259 meant: either buffers in contact and screw coupling done up tight, or buckeye coupler (with buffers retracted). There's some slight ambiguity in his sentence structure but only if not taken in context.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Compound2632

[JaymzHatstand]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I suppose it's obvious if you've got the brake carriages to hand but by left and right do you mean from the point of view of an observer facing the direction of travel? 

 

Yes, if looking straight down, with direction of travel being straight ahead. I realised it wasn't the easiest to follow description and should maybe have added a caveat.

 

Cheers

 

J

[atom3624]

Just ordered my 'rake of 9' this morning - should arrive tomorrow all being well.

 

For who've already received theirs, are there particular coaches, or simply bogies, whereby the axles are not as free-running as 'they should be' / as others?

Can this be easily resolved, without major surgery?

 

Al.

[LNER4479]

20 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

By the late 1930s it would have been Jinties. Loads of them in London with a couple of dozen allocated to Camden which was the passenger shed for Euston.

 

One of the reasons the majority were fitted with vacuum brakes and steam heat was so they could be used for station pilot work.

Station pilot work yes, but ECS moves to and from Willesden was a different thing (a run of approx 3 miles). Most pictures I've seen are of larger locos deployed on these workings up to and including Black 5s. The Fowler 2-6-2Ts are an example of the types used (about all they were good for).

 

For the initial climb out of Euston up Camden bank, it was common for the train loco to act as a banker (ie running in reverse) and then simply dropping off alongside Camden. This of course doubled up as a way of getting it back to shed (home loco) thus saving a 'path' on a busy piece of railway. No idea whether this happened for the Coro Scot stock itself but it wouldn't surprise me.

[robertcwp]

2 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Station pilot work yes, but ECS moves to and from Willesden was a different thing (a run of approx 3 miles). Most pictures I've seen are of larger locos deployed on these workings up to and including Black 5s. The Fowler 2-6-2Ts are an example of the types used (about all they were good for).

 

For the initial climb out of Euston up Camden bank, it was common for the train loco to act as a banker (ie running in reverse) and then simply dropping off alongside Camden. This of course doubled up as a way of getting it back to shed (home loco) thus saving a 'path' on a busy piece of railway. No idea whether this happened for the Coro Scot stock itself but it wouldn't surprise me.

I suspect the train engine remained attached to facilitate the reversing move as the whole set was turned, I believe in similar manner to the West Coast Postal sets. I have never seen a photo of any of these moves other than I think one of the stock going out of Glasgow Central with the engine on the rear.

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, atom3624 said:

Just ordered my 'rake of 9' this morning - should arrive tomorrow all being well.

 

For who've already received theirs, are there particular coaches, or simply bogies, whereby the axles are not as free-running as 'they should be' / as others?

Can this be easily resolved, without major surgery?

 

Al.

 

I don't know yet. I need to look at all of my coaches individually.

When I placed them on the layout, I do not remember seeing any which were noticeably poor & it seems to be a common thing that they are a bit 'draggy'.

 

I am sure my Hattons 66 will pull them without an issue. That would look rather odd though. 

[atom3624]

The H66 would open my garage door and pull the car out for me ... if it wasn't outside already!

 

I suppose I'm curious how 'easy' it is to remove the bogie and relieve some of the contact pressure whilst maintaining contact.

 

Al.

[markw]

25 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

The H66 would open my garage door and pull the car out for me ... if it wasn't outside already!

 

I suppose I'm curious how 'easy' it is to remove the bogie and relieve some of the contact pressure whilst maintaining contact.

 

Al.

The shorter wheelbase bogies of the kitchen car seem more prone.

The contact pressure is not high and did not need adjusting on any of mine, but several pickups were rubbing on the wheel insulating bush, easily adjusted without removing the bogie.

[atom3624]

Good information.

Thanks for the feedback.

Glad there's a 'little tweak' which will help the 6220 Coronation on its rounds .... and round !!

 

Al.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Station pilot work yes, but ECS moves to and from Willesden was a different thing (a run of approx 3 miles). Most pictures I've seen are of larger locos deployed on these workings up to and including Black 5s. The Fowler 2-6-2Ts are an example of the types used (about all they were good for).

 

For the initial climb out of Euston up Camden bank, it was common for the train loco to act as a banker (ie running in reverse) and then simply dropping off alongside Camden. This of course doubled up as a way of getting it back to shed (home loco) thus saving a 'path' on a busy piece of railway. No idea whether this happened for the Coro Scot stock itself but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

A Jinty would have absolutely no problem moving a nine coach train three miles.

 

They were 3Fs. More powerful than some of the antiquated locomotives pulling many of the trains.

 

 

Jason

[LNER4479]

Understood. I'm only going off photographic evidence - all photos I've seen of ECS workings at the London end feature larger locos.

[LNER4479]

Someone asked about occasions when a non-streamlined Duchess might be seen on the Coro Scot stock. Just looking through my various Duchess books just now and came across just such an image - according to the caption it's the Saturday Midday Scot, formed of the Coronation Scot vehicles plus other stock. Picture shows 6231 hauling the train, 14 vehicles in total. Maybe on summer Saturdays only when extra stock was needed?

 

[Aire Head]

10 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Someone asked about occasions when a non-streamlined Duchess might be seen on the Coro Scot stock. Just looking through my various Duchess books just now and came across just such an image - according to the caption it's the Saturday Midday Scot, formed of the Coronation Scot vehicles plus other stock. Picture shows 6231 hauling the train, 14 vehicles in total. Maybe on summer Saturdays only when extra stock was needed?

 

Surely the Midday Scot had its own dedicated rakes of coaches and didn’t use the Coronation sets?

[LNER4479]

It's carrying reporting number W97 1 (pre-war, remember) which, according to the caption writer (Jenkinson) was the Saturday Midday Scot. Maybe Robertcwp can comment? The '1' digit indicates that two trains are being run.

 

Saturday arrangements were often different, particularly in the summer, when many reliefs were run to cater for the additional traffic.

[Barry O]

6 hours ago, markw said:

The shorter wheelbase bogies of the kitchen car seem more prone.

The contact pressure is not high and did not need adjusting on any of mine, but several pickups were rubbing on the wheel insulating bush, easily adjusted without removing the bogie.

Erm.the kitchen car bogies are of a standard LMS length.. .

 

Baz