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LMS Coronation Scot Coaches


Garethp8873
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I pre-ordered the nine-coach rake from Hatton's last year and like several other members on here I was informed the FK was mailed a few weeks ago on its own.  I just received a notification that the balance of the order has just been mailed.  I will convert them to P4 with Brassmasters bogies, but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies.

 

PBM.

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1 minute ago, proton said:

but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies.

 

I've got this vexing feeling that I've seen a discussion of the kitchen car bogie issue that suggested that it was only in two of the sets that they had the 8 ft bogies - but I may just have become confused. It's bizarre that for sets of carriages so much in the public eye, certainty is so elusive!

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14 minutes ago, proton said:

I pre-ordered the nine-coach rake from Hatton's last year and like several other members on here I was informed the FK was mailed a few weeks ago on its own.  I just received a notification that the balance of the order has just been mailed.  I will convert them to P4 with Brassmasters bogies, but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies.

 

PBM.


The remainder of mine have now been processed and added to my trunk as well, phew!

Typically, it was about half an hour after I sent a polite e-mail to Hattons asking about a status update!

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The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies.  I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why.

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4 hours ago, proton said:

The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies.  I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why.

While the LMS did not have a "standard" 8' bogie the LNWR did. From the arricle shown in this thread it looks like they used 8' LNWR bogies on the RKs. Why? Well as the use of 8' bogies was only hinted at by the knowledgeable folk who drew scale drawings of these RKs or wrote books on the subject of LMS coaches I have trawled my limited library to find put why they used the 8' bogies..to no avail.

 

Baz

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18 hours ago, proton said:

The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies.  I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why.

On page 7 of this topic i have placed a few pieces of the article in the Railway Gazette, here is a little piece of the underframe , it says only very little about the bogies.

I found the Railway Gazette about 8 years ago in a pre owned bookstore, originally it belonged to the Dutch Railway library since 1937, i have the first half year , it weights 4,7 kilograms 1248 pages and an supplement of 48 pages, hardley to handle and not to copy, so have to take photo's .

The second part was lighter, i would to buy it the next day, but it was sold. 

20210427_140402.jpg

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It seems Hattons have some stock left of these, R4964, R4965, R 4965a and R4965b all more than 10 in stock, i am amazed the RFO to, expected 

this was all sold out in pre order as far i know.

Maybe left overs from cancelled pre orders.

Yesterday Hattons proceed my pre order of these.

Mine are partially on the way to me, the others still in my basket for the next shipping. 

Edited by Cor-onGRT4
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1 hour ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

On page 7 of this topic i have placed a few pieces of the article in the Railway Gazette, here is a little piece of the underframe , it says only very little about the bogies.

 

20210427_140402.jpg

 

 

 

Hum: "specially selected bogies" - which I read as meaning they weren't designed and built new for these kitchen cars. That lends some credence to the story that they were bogies of LNWR origin. I wonder what quality they had that made them more suitable than the LMS standard bogies? Could it be something as stupid as the sink waste outlet being in just the right place to wash the oil out of an axlebox of the standard bogie, so the carriage wouldn't last the 6 hr 30 min non-stop run?

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9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hum: "specially selected bogies" - which I read as meaning they weren't designed and built new for these kitchen cars. That lends some credence to the story that they were bogies of LNWR origin. I wonder what quality they had that made them more suitable than the LMS standard bogies? Could it be something as stupid as the sink waste outlet being in just the right place to wash the oil out of an axlebox of the standard bogie, so the carriage wouldn't last the 6 hr 30 min non-stop run?

I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space

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2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space


But if you do that with the Kitchen Car why wouldn’t you do it with other 50’ stock like BGs?

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On 22/04/2021 at 21:14, Graham_Muz said:


The rest of their allocation had been picked at Hornby and is due with Kernow next week.  Scratch. 

 

That's good to hear. I phoned Kernow this morning to check on the latest, and they weren't as specific as this and suggested might be next month but did say not to worry and that they weren't anticipating any problems with their allocation from Hornby. So fingers crossed it's OK...

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28 minutes ago, Aire Head said:


But if you do that with the Kitchen Car why wouldn’t you do it with other 50’ stock like BGs?

It’s only an idea but if you follow my logic that kitchen cars need additional  equipment then it’s equally true that baggage cars don’t. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

It’s only an idea but if you follow my logic that kitchen cars need additional  equipment then it’s equally true that baggage cars don’t. 

 

 

 

But other identical kitchen cars have 9ft bogies.

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5 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space

 

30 minutes ago, markw said:

But other identical kitchen cars have 9ft bogies.

 

24 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

was there anything different about the layout of the Kitchens on the Coronation Scot

 

It's tempting to assert that these were bog standard D1912 kitchen cars but I don't think that quite stands up. The six Coronation Scot cars were taken from a batch of 20 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1936. New, they weighed 33 tons but "on conversion", 34 tons. So I wonder if 8 ft bogies might have been an effort to save weight to compensate for it being added elsewhere? Also, we are told: "Most of the coaches selected for the sets were taken from the latest batches of new stock and were completely refitted inside and, except for the kitchen cars, equipped with a pressure heating and ventilation system." (My emphasis) [R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) p. 60 and p. 97.] Does their later book say more?

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14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

It's tempting to assert that these were bog standard D1912 kitchen cars but I don't think that quite stands up. The six Coronation Scot cars were taken from a batch of 20 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1936. New, they weighed 33 tons but "on conversion", 34 tons. So I wonder if 8 ft bogies might have been an effort to save weight to compensate for it being added elsewhere? Also, we are told: "Most of the coaches selected for the sets were taken from the latest batches of new stock and were completely refitted inside and, except for the kitchen cars, equipped with a pressure heating and ventilation system." (My emphasis) [R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) p. 60 and p. 97.] Does their later book say more?

I was looking at the two Edward Talbot books last night. Trying to decide if the photo's of the Kitchen car compared to other vehicle's in the train show the alleged shorter bogies or whether I am now seeing what isnt there to prove that the models 8 ft bogies are right. The relevant photos are slightly 3 quartered views that dont help and I'm not convinced all of the photo's are taken from same distance (or have been reproduced to the same scale if you see what I mean). 

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Just now, MikeParkin65 said:

I was looking at the two Edward Talbot books last night. Trying to decide if the photo's of the Kitchen car compared to other vehicle's in the train show the alleged shorter bogies or whether I am now seeing what isnt there to prove that the models 8 ft bogies are right. The relevant photos are slightly 3 quartered views that dont help and I'm not convinced all of the photo's are taken from same distance (or have been reproduced to the same scale if you see what I mean). 

 

I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies.

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies.

Got the OPC version up here in the attic  - different numbering! Have the original downstairs, will have a look at lunch time :)

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I think the whole 8'/9' bogie thing is mired in confusion - certainly, in the Railway Gazette, the published diagram shows the Kitchen Cars with 8' bogies and on checking my research files, I've certainly got details of the ex-LNWR 8' bogies separated out.

However, all the drawings relating to Lot 956 Kitchen cars, and I mean 'all', relate to 9' bogies...

Screenshot 2021-04-28 at 15.13.47.png

Screenshot 2021-04-28 at 15.20.52.png

Screenshot 2021-04-28 at 15.21.06.png

Screenshot 2021-04-28 at 15.21.32.png

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32 minutes ago, Islesy said:

I think the whole 8'/9' bogie thing is mired in confusion - certainly, in the Railway Gazette, the published diagram shows the Kitchen Cars with 8' bogies and on checking my research files, I've certainly got details of the ex-LNWR 8' bogies separated out.

However, all the drawings relating to Lot 956 Kitchen cars, and I mean 'all', relate to 9' bogies...

 

I would presume that all drawings for the kitchen cars of that lot as built would show 9 ft bogies, as that's how they were built. The exchange of those bogies for 8 ft ones would not require a new drawing...

 

Do all your drawings - meaning 'all' - refer to the kitchen cars as built, or does your collection include drawings detailing the conversion work that we are told was carried out on the six adapted for the Coronation Scot?

Edited by Compound2632
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7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies.

Still a slightly angled view unfortunately . Page 23 of the Edward Talbot book gives a good side on view of vehicles 5053, 9004, 7509 and Kitchen Car 30089. The bogies of the latter certainly look to be of LMS type but more compact than the bogies of the others. I am I think persuaded :)

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A comparison of 30089 (Coronation Scot vehicle), with 30090 (LMS Service vehicle). Both from Lot 956...

33 ton for 30090, 34 ton for 30089.

1960593348_Screenshot2021-04-28at19_19_17.png.ca56ddd66d93ac8feb43806cf1389877.png932611022_Screenshot2021-04-28at19_18_41.png.76164612de88c3a4658bcd4e0f89eeec.png

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