LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[Johan DC]

1 hour ago, CF MRC said:

 

Does  anyone make the winged headlamps for these trains?

 

They're included. At least, 6221 has them, 6220 hasn't arrived here yet. 

 

[Barry O]

I suppose I could repaint my Streamlined Duchess. It is a Jamieson Kit so nowhere near as detailed as the latest Hornby offerings but with Neodinium Magnet fitted in to the Hornby Dublo chassis it should easily pull this set..

 

and it has a trailing truck which moves from side to side(!) ..stupid idea!

 

Baz

[atom3624]

9 hours ago, Johan DC said:

They're included. At least, 6221 has them, 6220 hasn't arrived here yet. 

 

Blue / Silver winged lamps are included in 6220 as well.

 

The DJH streamlined Coronation comes with them as well, but when I asked some time ago, they didn't make them available separately.

 

Al.

[phil-b259]

On 09/05/2021 at 20:23, Steam here! said:

 

I'm also pleased with the close couplings and the extended corrodor connectors, creates a more acceptable gap when on a straight line.

Not sure about the cornering though?

 

From the pictures it looks like you could get an even closer coupling on the straight by using a combination of 1x Hornby and 1xRoco close couplers

 

Naturally even the best close coupler mechanism, won't do anything to make the coaches when going round 2nd radius curves.

 

(The Roco one is the original, Hornby reverse engineered it but made theirs 2mm longer)

 

[nswgr1855]

On 19/04/2021 at 18:47, atom3624 said:

I aim for a total weight ~580-630g with the 'big pacifics', loco + tender.

Ideally as these locos were 95-110 tons, and the tenders 35-55 tons depending on size and water / coal remaining, I aim for the tenders to be ~40% the weight of the locomotive, typically ~180-200g.

 

The Coronations and the streamlined Bulleids are always the easiest.

Some it's not necessary / not possible in the locomotives, like the Britannias.

 

Al.

There is no need to add any weight to the tender. All it does is decrease the maximum length train you can pull. Better to make the coaches free rolling, then the locomotive does not have to be full of lead.

 

[nswgr1855]

On 21/04/2021 at 05:52, LNER4479 said:

OK, so had a bit of a play with mine ...

 

Most of the seven passenger coaches would roll away down my 1-in-90, some more freely that others. For those less free running, easing off the pick-up pressure improved their running.

 

Bogies can be eased out of their pivots ...

 

... sufficient to rotate them like so. Obviously the wires for the pick ups are still attached so can be removed no further without more intrusive work. Actually, as it turned out, didn't end up needing to do this, but good to know.

 

Adjustment of pick-ups is work of a moment. Was going to use tweezers but actually can be done with a small screwdriver. Just apply pressure immediately beyond the 90degree bend (ie the non-wheel end). Doesn't need much.

 

The Kitchen cars wouldn't roll away at all. Definitely the 'problem' vehicles. The wheelsets are noticeably more 'sloppy' in their bearings, ie more side-to-side movement ... which means that they are likely to be rubbing on the brake blocks. I even wonder if the axle is rubbing on the plate beneath it? When I applied gentle pressure to push the two opposing axleboxes together, then it all trued up and ran freely (other than the braking effect of the pick-ups)

 

For tonight, the only other thing I've done is to tweak the brake blocks away like so - note the brake block above - you should be able to see it angled back slightly.

 

This made some difference but still not able to freely run away down the gradient. Anyhow, I gave it all a try and this was the result:

 

 

Did you like the bit where the loco went and retrieved its coaches?

 

More work to improve the free running of the RKs may be possible but I'm not sure how much difference it would make overall. It's quite a heavy set as it is, just feeling the pull on the lead coupling. What I haven't told you is that I also quickly added a piece of lead underneath the 'bath tub' before this piece of filming, as it still wasn't making too much of an impression. Might try it with my 46256 just to see - from here on in I think it's the loco that needs working on!

Hornby make their carriages to heavy in my opinion. Removing the weights will mean you do not need to add much weight if any to the locomotive to get the train up a scale grade.  After removing the carriage weights, the carriage weight very close to the NEM Norm / AMRA mass standards.

 

[atom3624]

55 minutes ago, nswgr1855 said:

There is no need to add any weight to the tender. All it does is decrease the maximum length train you can pull. Better to make the coaches free rolling, then the locomotive does not have to be full of lead.

 

We'll agree to disagree here.

I understand and agree in principle that there's little / no need and that drawbar pulling ability will be reduced - additional coaches.  I just know in 1:1 the locomotive's ~110 tons, tender loaded ~55 tons, so target up to 50% of locomotive weight.

Taking 'the compromise' into consideration, that there may be a risk of pulling off a light tender (can happen, but rare), and also a tender doesn't stay full for long, closer to 35-40% of locomotive weight is what I target generally.

 

Al.

[nswgr1855]

14 hours ago, atom3624 said:

We'll agree to disagree here.

I understand and agree in principle that there's little / no need and that drawbar pulling ability will be reduced - additional coaches.  I just know in 1:1 the locomotive's ~110 tons, tender loaded ~55 tons, so target up to 50% of locomotive weight.

Taking 'the compromise' into consideration, that there may be a risk of pulling off a light tender (can happen, but rare), and also a tender doesn't stay full for long, closer to 35-40% of locomotive weight is what I target generally.

 

Al.

In theory the locomotive mass scaled down will only be about 167g and the full tender 86g.  Scaling down does not produce a practical solution. My experience from experiments resulted in the AMRA minimum carriage mass standard https://amra.asn.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/AMRA-Carriage-Mass-standard.pdf  Any extra weight for tenders compared to the standard is unnecessary, and only causes models to wear out quicker and not able to pull full length trains. My  Hornby Princess Elisabeth has no weight added to the tender or locomotive yet and can pull or push the 9 car set (after adjusting brake shoes and wipers) with the carriage weights removed, at maximum speed without derailment along flat track. My Hornby LNER P2 is 100g heavier @  390g (as delivered) and can just pull the train up a 1 in 70 grade on a 914mm radius curve, no derailments. I now know how much extra weight is needed for my Hornby Princess Elisabeth to pull the 9 coach train on my layout. Nothing to do with prototype weights.

 

 

[Barry O]

You cannot scale down any of the Laws of physics unfortunately.  "G" is not scaleable 

 

Baz

[atom3624]

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, as I said before.

 

There are many underweight locomotives, and PERSONALLY (my own preference) is to establish a proportion of each in relation to each other at full scale, within reason.

I fully understand the extra wear considerations and aspects, but you'll have to be circulating several hours every day for months to see anything major happening.  I know that, as when in use mine, I generally have the same locomotives circulating for 30-90 minutes at a time - regularly monitoring motor, etc., and 'the nose test' as well!

 

Weight does make a difference to the hauling capacity, when still within the 'bounds' of what seems reasonable with 'mechanical sympathy', in my mind.

Having a 350-400g locomotive, with a 75g tender just seems wrong.  It should at least weigh the same as a super detailed coach - as it would in the real world, as I operate.

 

Considerations and concern for wear are justified.  There's a new H-Dublo Coronation owner on the Hornby site who's just confirmed the Coronation alone (without tender) weighs 666g.  My guess is the running gear - chassis - is the same as the standard plastic one.  That's at least 300g lighter!

 

There is a very good modern image diesel, which whilst it hauls well, is ridiculously underweight, both relatively (to other similar class locomotives of the same manufacturer and others) and to what I feel it should be, and is easily out-hauled by locomotives which wouldn't touch it with a barge pole in 'real life', that's the Bachmann Class 70.

Ugly as sin, but REALLY powerful - not the Bachmann one.  450g or less I believe, whereas even 37's are 100g heavier out of the factory.  There's very little space remaining to add additional weight - I know, I've tried on mine - got perhaps 40g in.

 

Al.

[Mad McCann]

666gm?

That's a bit of a Beast... 

[Barry O]

1 hour ago, Mad McCann said:

666gm?

That's a bit of a Beast... 

Mike Edge weights DJH Duchesses up to pull kit buily coaching rakes on the EM model of Carlisle. That figure sounds about right. My DJH ones weigh in at 550gm.

Baz

[farren]

It’s 606 grams sorry. Butter fingers on my account, when I wrote the post Atom 3624 is referring to. 

[atom3624]

I thought it was a tad over, but the largest locomotive and diecast should be pretty heavy.

606g is still a full-on heavyweight!

Al.

[nswgr1855]

On 26/08/2021 at 19:19, atom3624 said:

Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree, as I said before.

 

There are many underweight locomotives, and PERSONALLY (my own preference) is to establish a proportion of each in relation to each other at full scale, within reason.

I fully understand the extra wear considerations and aspects, but you'll have to be circulating several hours every day for months to see anything major happening.  I know that, as when in use mine, I generally have the same locomotives circulating for 30-90 minutes at a time - regularly monitoring motor, etc., and 'the nose test' as well!

 

Weight does make a difference to the hauling capacity, when still within the 'bounds' of what seems reasonable with 'mechanical sympathy', in my mind.

Having a 350-400g locomotive, with a 75g tender just seems wrong.  It should at least weigh the same as a super detailed coach - as it would in the real world, as I operate.

 

Considerations and concern for wear are justified.  There's a new H-Dublo Coronation owner on the Hornby site who's just confirmed the Coronation alone (without tender) weighs 666g.  My guess is the running gear - chassis - is the same as the standard plastic one.  That's at least 300g lighter!

 

There is a very good modern image diesel, which whilst it hauls well, is ridiculously underweight, both relatively (to other similar class locomotives of the same manufacturer and others) and to what I feel it should be, and is easily out-hauled by locomotives which wouldn't touch it with a barge pole in 'real life', that's the Bachmann Class 70.

Ugly as sin, but REALLY powerful - not the Bachmann one.  450g or less I believe, whereas even 37's are 100g heavier out of the factory.  There's very little space remaining to add additional weight - I know, I've tried on mine - got perhaps 40g in.

 

Al.

All you are achieving is wearing out your models quicker than necessary. You might have no trouble with pulling ability, but it is clear you do not have typical steep model railway grades and curves. If you have model railway grades then prototype proportional weights are not of any benefit. Weight is invisible.

 

[atom3624]

Extra weight will wear out a same-type drivetrain, relatively, I agree - but this will only be observed over many hours' running time - doubt I'll ever approach that.

Depending on how fabricated Hornby have had non-powered tenders weighing from stuff-all, to nearly loco weight (when using up the old tender-powered tender chassis) so they're obviously not that concerned.

I like to add a little to the locomotive - some you cannot, and/or is not necessary - Britannias and Royal Scots for example.

After that, if the tender's ridiculously light, as some are, presumably leaving space for speakers, etc., I add to make ~40% locomotive weight - which is less than Hornby's own tender weight when using up the tender drive units when locomotive driven.

Just a quick reminder, the reason adding weight was concerned in this thread was to aid traction wrt the high drag of some of the Coronation coaches - identified worst are the kitchen cars, of which there are 2 in the train.  I have both of mine 'ready for the bench again' and I know I'm not the most skilled, nor experienced, but will have another go.  The added weight was to aid the Coronations pulling this train 'realistically', without simply spinning the wheels up.

Understood, where inclines are concerned, if they come into the equation, Isaac Newton comes into the considerations, perhaps. Traction and momentum as well.

You have your way, I have mine - simples.

I'm not changing. I'm not 'playing any more tennis'.

Al.

Edited August 28, 2021 by atom3624

[bob1234]

Does anyone know the accuracy of the wheels on not having the white band painted on? Personally I think they would look better and would match the loco if it was added

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, bob1234 said:

Does anyone know the accuracy of the wheels on not having the white band painted on? Personally I think they would look better and would match the loco if it was added

 

This is the demonstration special, W700. What do you think?

 

 

 

[By Agence de presse Meurisse - Bibliothèque nationale de France, Public Domain, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=22576991.]

[Robin Brasher]

Last Thursday I ran my Coronation locomotive with a rake of seven Coronation coaches. The baseboard was not completely level and the locomotive was unable to haul the load without slipping where there was a slight incline so I removed one coach. I wonder if Hornby had ever tested the locomotive to see if it would pull nine coaches. Perhaps Coronation could be a candidate for a Hornby Dublo version with a diecast body or Hornby could make some Coronation Scot coaches without lights that would have less drag. 

[Opelsi]

Somewhat disappointing that the loco is not able to cope with the 9 coaches they are supposed to be able to do so.

I wonder about the feasibility of double heading? 

Would look spectacular but, is there facility for a coupling on the front bogie of the latest Coronation!

Need to check when I can as I have 6220 & 6221 when I can get to them.

Accept you should not need to resort to this - just an idea!

[Ian Hargrave]

I wonder how many have invested in a full rake….as you do if modelling this iconic express…..and are now faced with this disappointing situation ? I almost did but drew back from the brink. Reading this makes me appreciate that I made a correct decision. 

[SimonF]

I own a full rake and it ran without slipping when hauled by the latest Hornby Princess Elizabeth  - on flat baseboards with standard 4th radius curves.  Not tried it with a streamlined princess coronation yet as I don't own one currently. the rake does look really good when running together.

[atom3624]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I always add a little weight.

All of my Streamliners are at least 425g, and I also compensate a little in the tender (in real life it was just less than half the locomotive weight) and this will assist in a stable base on curves.

Earlier in the thread it has been mentioned - and I agree - the main problems are the Kitchen cars - 2 / rake of 9 (yes I have a rake of 9).

If/as/when you remove wheel/axle sets be very careful to ensure the pickup wipers are the correct, near-straight profile, JUST touching - keeping as light as possible.

 

The problem with the Kitchen cars can be the brake shoes which can touch / interfere, sometimes on curves if not on the straight.

One option is to carefully trim back, but this is not easy.

Another, more brutal, but possible necessary is to remove the brake shoes. This will definitely free up the coach a little - but don't forget those pickups - keep aligned as perfectly as possible.

 

It is frustrating when other, fundamentally identically designed Coronation coaches are actually quite free-running!

My $0.03.

 

Al.

 

PS:    Yes, adding weight does put more stress on the chassis / drivetrain, but don't forget I mentioned a possible 450g (>425g) and Hornby themselves use the same chassis with their diecast H-D iterations, which have been said to weigh ~600g just the locomotive alone!

PPS: Yes, with continued running, I did have problems with my Coronation, which was hauling without too much problem.  Motor is good and very powerful.  I ended up having to replace the final drive gear - actually getting a metal one.  It runs perfectly now (I did have some 'quartering issues' which I resolved as well.

[Steamport Southport]

I haven't got a Coronation yet*. But my two recent Hornby Duchesses can pull a full set with ease - 46256 and 46257 if you are wondering. Only for testing purposes. I haven't got around to getting a blue streamliner yet.

 

Nine coaches was a small express train on the WCML, most were about 14 coaches and many had 12 wheel dining cars.

 

Double heading. I'm afraid not. Sometimes one would couple up to something else to avoid a light engine movement, but a 4-6-2 didn't really need assistance on pulling a train. And if it did it was usually a banker pushing at the rear over Shap.

 

 

 

*I have two red ones in the pile waiting for completion as they are slightly older versions with Comet chassis. Most of the coaches they will be pulling are also Comet. 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 20, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[No Decorum]

I have a very ancient blue Coronation but have been put off getting the latest version by the front (huge holes at the handrails and the stripes not meeting in a point). So I stuck a Princess, the version before flangeless wheels became a thing, in front. It is incongruous but it has sound and my two-year-old grandson has a thing about whistles. It hauled all nine coaches with no trouble.

 

Incidentally, the Princess has sound, Hornby’s own sound from before TTS days. It’s been some time since I gave it a run and it showed how far we have come with sound. It comes to a stop still chuffing hard!