proton Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) I pre-ordered the nine-coach rake from Hatton's last year and like several other members on here I was informed the FK was mailed a few weeks ago on its own. I just received a notification that the balance of the order has just been mailed. I will convert them to P4 with Brassmasters bogies, but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies. PBM. Edited April 26, 2021 by proton grammar 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 26, 2021 1 minute ago, proton said: but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies. I've got this vexing feeling that I've seen a discussion of the kitchen car bogie issue that suggested that it was only in two of the sets that they had the 8 ft bogies - but I may just have become confused. It's bizarre that for sets of carriages so much in the public eye, certainty is so elusive! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clearwater Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 I have the same issue with stiff RKs. Careful how you type that one... David 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleRedTrain Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, proton said: I pre-ordered the nine-coach rake from Hatton's last year and like several other members on here I was informed the FK was mailed a few weeks ago on its own. I just received a notification that the balance of the order has just been mailed. I will convert them to P4 with Brassmasters bogies, but will have to order some 8' kits since I was under the mistaken impression the RKs were on standard 9' bogies. PBM. The remainder of mine have now been processed and added to my trunk as well, phew! Typically, it was about half an hour after I sent a polite e-mail to Hattons asking about a status update! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
proton Posted April 26, 2021 Share Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies. I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why. Edited April 26, 2021 by proton Content 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 26, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 26, 2021 4 hours ago, proton said: The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies. I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why. While the LMS did not have a "standard" 8' bogie the LNWR did. From the arricle shown in this thread it looks like they used 8' LNWR bogies on the RKs. Why? Well as the use of 8' bogies was only hinted at by the knowledgeable folk who drew scale drawings of these RKs or wrote books on the subject of LMS coaches I have trawled my limited library to find put why they used the 8' bogies..to no avail. Baz 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cor-onGRT4 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 18 hours ago, proton said: The wheelbase of the RKs has been discussed (I created a post on the S4 site IIRC), and I was assured that the LMS did not have 8' bogies. I would like to see the Railway Gazette of 28 May 1937 article referenced earlier to see if it was just the 'Scot RKs that had the shorter bogies, and why. On page 7 of this topic i have placed a few pieces of the article in the Railway Gazette, here is a little piece of the underframe , it says only very little about the bogies. I found the Railway Gazette about 8 years ago in a pre owned bookstore, originally it belonged to the Dutch Railway library since 1937, i have the first half year , it weights 4,7 kilograms 1248 pages and an supplement of 48 pages, hardley to handle and not to copy, so have to take photo's . The second part was lighter, i would to buy it the next day, but it was sold. 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cor-onGRT4 Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 (edited) It seems Hattons have some stock left of these, R4964, R4965, R 4965a and R4965b all more than 10 in stock, i am amazed the RFO to, expected this was all sold out in pre order as far i know. Maybe left overs from cancelled pre orders. Yesterday Hattons proceed my pre order of these. Mine are partially on the way to me, the others still in my basket for the next shipping. Edited April 27, 2021 by Cor-onGRT4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Cor-onGRT4 said: On page 7 of this topic i have placed a few pieces of the article in the Railway Gazette, here is a little piece of the underframe , it says only very little about the bogies. Hum: "specially selected bogies" - which I read as meaning they weren't designed and built new for these kitchen cars. That lends some credence to the story that they were bogies of LNWR origin. I wonder what quality they had that made them more suitable than the LMS standard bogies? Could it be something as stupid as the sink waste outlet being in just the right place to wash the oil out of an axlebox of the standard bogie, so the carriage wouldn't last the 6 hr 30 min non-stop run? 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted April 27, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2021 9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Hum: "specially selected bogies" - which I read as meaning they weren't designed and built new for these kitchen cars. That lends some credence to the story that they were bogies of LNWR origin. I wonder what quality they had that made them more suitable than the LMS standard bogies? Could it be something as stupid as the sink waste outlet being in just the right place to wash the oil out of an axlebox of the standard bogie, so the carriage wouldn't last the 6 hr 30 min non-stop run? I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said: I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space But if you do that with the Kitchen Car why wouldn’t you do it with other 50’ stock like BGs? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
drt7uk Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 On 22/04/2021 at 21:14, Graham_Muz said: The rest of their allocation had been picked at Hornby and is due with Kernow next week. Scratch. That's good to hear. I phoned Kernow this morning to check on the latest, and they weren't as specific as this and suggested might be next month but did say not to worry and that they weren't anticipating any problems with their allocation from Hornby. So fingers crossed it's OK... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted April 27, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2021 28 minutes ago, Aire Head said: But if you do that with the Kitchen Car why wouldn’t you do it with other 50’ stock like BGs? It’s only an idea but if you follow my logic that kitchen cars need additional equipment then it’s equally true that baggage cars don’t. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
markw Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said: It’s only an idea but if you follow my logic that kitchen cars need additional equipment then it’s equally true that baggage cars don’t. But other identical kitchen cars have 9ft bogies. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aire Head Posted April 27, 2021 Share Posted April 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, markw said: But other identical kitchen cars have 9ft bogies. Hence my confusion too! was there anything different about the layout of the Kitchens on the Coronation Scot 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 27, 2021 5 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said: I wonder if it was the desire to make the kitchen car as short and light as possible (it is after all not passenger carrying therefore not revenue earning) along with the amount of equipment they needed to get attached to the underframe? The shorter bogies free up an extra 2 feet of useable underframe space 30 minutes ago, markw said: But other identical kitchen cars have 9ft bogies. 24 minutes ago, Aire Head said: was there anything different about the layout of the Kitchens on the Coronation Scot It's tempting to assert that these were bog standard D1912 kitchen cars but I don't think that quite stands up. The six Coronation Scot cars were taken from a batch of 20 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1936. New, they weighed 33 tons but "on conversion", 34 tons. So I wonder if 8 ft bogies might have been an effort to save weight to compensate for it being added elsewhere? Also, we are told: "Most of the coaches selected for the sets were taken from the latest batches of new stock and were completely refitted inside and, except for the kitchen cars, equipped with a pressure heating and ventilation system." (My emphasis) [R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) p. 60 and p. 97.] Does their later book say more? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2021 14 hours ago, Compound2632 said: It's tempting to assert that these were bog standard D1912 kitchen cars but I don't think that quite stands up. The six Coronation Scot cars were taken from a batch of 20 built by the Gloucester RC&W Co in 1936. New, they weighed 33 tons but "on conversion", 34 tons. So I wonder if 8 ft bogies might have been an effort to save weight to compensate for it being added elsewhere? Also, we are told: "Most of the coaches selected for the sets were taken from the latest batches of new stock and were completely refitted inside and, except for the kitchen cars, equipped with a pressure heating and ventilation system." (My emphasis) [R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) p. 60 and p. 97.] Does their later book say more? I was looking at the two Edward Talbot books last night. Trying to decide if the photo's of the Kitchen car compared to other vehicle's in the train show the alleged shorter bogies or whether I am now seeing what isnt there to prove that the models 8 ft bogies are right. The relevant photos are slightly 3 quartered views that dont help and I'm not convinced all of the photo's are taken from same distance (or have been reproduced to the same scale if you see what I mean). 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 28, 2021 Just now, MikeParkin65 said: I was looking at the two Edward Talbot books last night. Trying to decide if the photo's of the Kitchen car compared to other vehicle's in the train show the alleged shorter bogies or whether I am now seeing what isnt there to prove that the models 8 ft bogies are right. The relevant photos are slightly 3 quartered views that dont help and I'm not convinced all of the photo's are taken from same distance (or have been reproduced to the same scale if you see what I mean). I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies. 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies. Got the OPC version up here in the attic - different numbering! Have the original downstairs, will have a look at lunch time 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Thank you for the information about the kitchen car bogies. You will be pleased to read that Hattons have now got all three versions of the R4965/A/B LMS Stanier D1981 Coronation Scot 57' restaurant third opens in stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 28, 2021 I think the whole 8'/9' bogie thing is mired in confusion - certainly, in the Railway Gazette, the published diagram shows the Kitchen Cars with 8' bogies and on checking my research files, I've certainly got details of the ex-LNWR 8' bogies separated out. However, all the drawings relating to Lot 956 Kitchen cars, and I mean 'all', relate to 9' bogies... 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Islesy said: I think the whole 8'/9' bogie thing is mired in confusion - certainly, in the Railway Gazette, the published diagram shows the Kitchen Cars with 8' bogies and on checking my research files, I've certainly got details of the ex-LNWR 8' bogies separated out. However, all the drawings relating to Lot 956 Kitchen cars, and I mean 'all', relate to 9' bogies... I would presume that all drawings for the kitchen cars of that lot as built would show 9 ft bogies, as that's how they were built. The exchange of those bogies for 8 ft ones would not require a new drawing... Do all your drawings - meaning 'all' - refer to the kitchen cars as built, or does your collection include drawings detailing the conversion work that we are told was carried out on the six adapted for the Coronation Scot? Edited April 28, 2021 by Compound2632 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2021 7 hours ago, Compound2632 said: I refer again to R.J. Essery and D. Jekinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) Plate 9d, which pretty conclusively shows 8ft wheelbase bogies. Still a slightly angled view unfortunately . Page 23 of the Edward Talbot book gives a good side on view of vehicles 5053, 9004, 7509 and Kitchen Car 30089. The bogies of the latter certainly look to be of LMS type but more compact than the bogies of the others. I am I think persuaded 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said: Still a slightly angled view unfortunately . But compare with Plates 9a/b. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted April 28, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) A comparison of 30089 (Coronation Scot vehicle), with 30090 (LMS Service vehicle). Both from Lot 956... 33 ton for 30090, 34 ton for 30089. Edited April 28, 2021 by Islesy 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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