LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Islesy said:

A comparison of 30089 (Coronation Scot vehicle), with 30090 (LMS Service vehicle). Both from Lot 956...

 

It's unfortunate they're opposite sides! But running a ruler over the photos and taking (average wheelbase in mm / length in mm) x 50 ft gives near enough 9 ft for 30090 and 8 ft for 30089. 

[Islesy]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Do all your drawings - meaning 'all' - refer to the kitchen cars as built, or does your collection include drawings detailing the conversion work

The Kitchen Car drawings are the only drawings relating to Coronation Scot stock that do not specifically mention 'Coronation Scot' or 'the 1:30pm train', even on the GA. Other drawings feature comments upon them as thus:

[Invicta]

On 27/04/2021 at 14:27, Cor-onGRT4 said:

It seems Hattons have some stock left of these, R4964, R4965, R 4965a and R4965b all more than 10 in stock, i am amazed the RFO to, expected 

this was all sold out in pre order as far i know.

Maybe left overs from cancelled pre orders.

Yesterday Hattons proceed my pre order of these.

Mine are partially on the way to me, the others still in my basket for the next shipping. 

 

That's handy- I'd not planned this one very well and hadn't pre-ordered, but managed to pick up 6 (I'm probably not going to be able to make sensible use of a full 9-car set on the layout I'm currently building, so was aiming at one of each coach type) from Signal Box in Anstey last week, but was still short of an RFO- now have one winging it's way to me from Hattons.

 

Initial impression of the ones I have is very positive- Haven't run them yet on my test track, but seem to have similar experience to others that one or two axles aren't very free-running, but we'll see when I get to actually run them.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Using a very crude method and Islesy's images I think the 8ft wheel base for the bogies on the Coronation Scot can be confirmed.

The coach is 50 ft long.

50 divided by 8 is six and a bit. Count the number of gaps between the red lines which were copied and pasted from the lines lining up with the axle box edges.

50 divided by 9 is five and nearly a half. Count the number of gaps between blue lines which were copied and pasted form the bogie wheel base.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

My even more crude method is to compare the length of the springs to the distance between them.

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you for the information about the kitchen car bogies. You will be pleased to read that I have now received my full set of Coronation Scot coaches. I bought the Coronation locomotive and two coaches from the Swanage Station shop and the remaining coaches came today from Kernow in Cornwall via Birmingham and Bournemouth.

[proton]

This now raises the question in my mind as to what bogie wheelbase the ex LMS RKs had when used in the 1957 Caledonian.  Given that the Caledonian was essentially the post-war reincarnation of the 'Scot, and the vehicles chosen would have been in top condition, does this suggest that the RKs had the 8' bogies instead of the 9'?  I don't have a lot of material on the Caledonian, and the few photos I have seen focus generally on the head end power and the first few cars.  I have a Comet RK to assemble, hence the question.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, proton said:

This now raises the question in my mind as to what bogie wheelbase the ex LMS RKs had when used in the 1957 Caledonian.  Given that the Caledonian was essentially the post-war reincarnation of the 'Scot, and the vehicles chosen would have been in top condition, does this suggest that the RKs had the 8' bogies instead of the 9'?  I don't have a lot of material on the Caledonian, and the few photos I have seen focus generally on the head end power and the first few cars.  I have a Comet RK to assemble, hence the question.

 

Well, did the Coronation Scot kitchen cars retain their 8 ft bogies when returned to general service? 

 

It must be known which kitchen cars were used on the Caledonian? (Wouldn't that train have been all Mk 1?)

[Cheshire Lines.]

Hi all, as most of you have mentioned, I too had the drag issue which caused the set to derail ALOT ! -  it was the 2 kitchen cars causing the issue and IT IS the brake shoes rubbing against the wheels. I have used pliers to bend the shoes away the wheels - there are 2 shoes per wheel - I know that's obvious, but 2 of the shoes are hidden under a bar making them difficult to get to, but they were the main culprits touching the wheels. Having now made these adjustments to all 8 shoes on each bogie, they and the whole set run very well. One to to try if you are having the same drag problems.

[atom3624]

I found the B2B generally very good.

I also found the positioning of the tension-lock couplings very critical else they would derail - I don't even mean avoid having them cross.

Further to the above, fitting the optional couplings seems to resolve the 2nd point completely, with easy curve clearance.

Agreed the brake shoes are a pain on the kitchen cars - OK on all of the others.

Al.

[robertcwp]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Well, did the Coronation Scot kitchen cars retain their 8 ft bogies when returned to general service? 

 

It must be known which kitchen cars were used on the Caledonian? (Wouldn't that train have been all Mk 1?)

The Caledonian began with a porthole brake first and LMS 50' kitchen car. The LMR did have some Mark 1 kitchen cars and there are photos of them in the train but most were not built until the early 1960s, by which time full kitchen cars were on the way out. Mark 1 BFKs appeared in 1959 and replaced the porthole ones in the train.

[drt7uk]

Got all 9 this morning, which is a mighty relief. No thanks to Hattons/Hornby, will not pre-order from Hattons again. Thank you Kernow for coming to the rescue, and actually saving me about £10. They are beautiful, glad to have them.

[Steamport Southport]

Hattons? Didn't have any problems getting nearly a full set from them, not as a pre order. Just missing the BFK and FK. Seem pretty common elsewhere so no panic. 

 

 

 

 

If you did have the pre-order cancelled you have my deepest sympathies and this post isn't meant as a gloating one. But it's rare for me to pre order so I tend to just wait and see what turns up. 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[sandwich station]

It actually says this on the Hornby website 

 

Quote

Twenty RKs were built by the LMSR to Diagram 1912, under Lot 956, six of which (nos. 30084-89) were liveried as Coronation Scot vehicles, with the remainder being liveried in lined LMS colours. There were no significant external body differences between the two types, other than livery, however it appears that the vehicles converted for the Coronation Scot may have been equipped with ex-LNWR 8’ bogies and fitted with LMS axleboxes, whereas the standard RK vehicles were fitted with 9’ LMS bogies.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/blog-and-news/engine-shed/1937-present-day-wcml-lms-coronation-scot-coaches-and-avanti-west-coast-pendolino-sets

[Steam here!]

no: 6220 "Coronation" with the full set "Coronation Scot"

[Steam here!]

"Coronation" doing a hill start on the 2% gradient.

[No Decorum]

22 hours ago, Steam here! said:

no: 6220 "Coronation" with the full set "Coronation Scot"

When the last of my coaches arrive, I’ll tow them with my ancient, shortie, tender driven Coronation. If Hornby sorts out the machine gun holes and brings the stripes to a point, I’ll get the new one. Whilst Hornby is working on those two points if it does, it wouldn’t come amiss to add a short tender drawbar which fits and provide flangeways for the trailing wheels.

[atom3624]

Update on the new-tool Coronation with possibly about-to-fail centre axle gear ... it has!!

 

I had realigned the gear, and accorded a little superglue for good measure.

Problem is, with the heavy load, and extra weight in the locomotive, after a few quite reasonable loops, the motor suddenly started revving freely ... 

 

Quick inspection and the gear's not held on the axle ... back to Plan A !!

 

Locomotive was dismantled, centre rods removed, axle removed - gear very free-running.

Wheels were removed off the older Coronation axle I'd had ready, and then very carefully off the existing axle - bushes replaced, but wheels not held - splines are different, slightly.

Obviously, I'll have to VERY carefully slide off the old gear and replace onto the newer Coronation axle ... done and holds well.

 

All replaced, 15 checks on the quartering ... all reconnected up and ... like a car with poor timing, hunting ... obviously the quartering's out!!

 

All disconnected again, VERY gently removed again.

I checked the alignment of axles 1 & 3, in case they're both actually slightly out ... they're spot on, so it was my error.

Wheels checked, and checked, and checked again ... all reassembled again - SMOOOOTH !!

 

Seems as if the gears are tighter forwards than backwards, so will back off the baseplate a slight touch - possibly just a little bedding in of the new gear but runs well and no problems.

 

Al.

[atom3624]

Before someone asks, one bad practice I did was to loosely measure the gear wheels.

 

I have a vernier scale, but didn't measure the 2, just side-by-side.  I think it'll be fine.

 

Al.

[Steam here!]

I just wanted to check regarding the daily duties of the "Coronation Scot" how was it done?

 

I take it the Princess Coronation loco was prepared and left the shed, headed to the station, coupled up to its coaches and when ready it departed?

 

Also could I further check regarding the empty stock movements, were the coaches kept in a carriage siding?

 

Would a station pilot collect the empty coaching stock and bring them into the station, uncouple and wait for the express loco to leave with train? (Coronation Scot train departing)

 

When the Coronation Scot train arrived at the other terminus loco first, would the station pilot couple up and take the empty coaches away to a triangle or put them back in the carriage siding?

 

Just confirming the types of the loco hauling empty coaching stock would I be right thinking. The jinty, 5mt "black 5", 3f were there any other types of locos?

 

Callum

Edited May 9, 2021 by Steam here!
Made an error.

[LNER4479]

Some of what you ask Callum was discussed a few pages back. Check out some of the posts on page 17-18

[Steam here!]

Just revisited pages 17-18, thanks for your help LNER4479. The good news is I have a few of those locos, the bad news is somehow I think the jinty will struggle, will have to do some trial and error.

[Steam here!]

On 08/05/2021 at 13:31, No Decorum said:

When the last of my coaches arrive, I’ll tow them with my ancient, shortie, tender driven Coronation. If Hornby sorts out the machine gun holes and brings the stripes to a point, I’ll get the new one. Whilst Hornby is working on those two points if it does, it wouldn’t come amiss to add a short tender drawbar which fits and provide flangeways for the trailing wheels.

No Decorum, you mentioned the machine gun holes, do you mean the two front holes between the buffers?

If so, that for the steps that come in the detail pack, hope that helps.

[Steam here!]

Well folks, I've just done the trial and error with the suitable LMS steam locos and the following failed:

 

Bachmann LMS Jinty

Bachmann Midland 3F (LMS livery)

Hornby 3F S&DJR livery

Hornby 5mt "Black 5".

 

Only "Coronation" could set off from the bottom of the gradient and keep going.

I know it may not be accurate, but I may as well get "Coronation" to be the "Coronation Scot" train's pilot as well as the express.

Its a compromise I can live with.

I'm also pleased with the close couplings and the extended corrodor connectors, creates a more acceptable gap when on a straight line.

Not sure about the cornering though?

[atom3624]

I noticed the cam effect of the couplings around curves - at least they're not too close!!

 

Al.