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LMS Coronation Scot Coaches


Garethp8873
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Got to admit I was disappointed to find mine cannot pull 9 either.

 

My layout is uneven, with minor gradients which affect very little in general, but even with wheel mod I probably wont get a result on my level track. 

 

As for my gradients loops I already know the long term answer to that one, but that was never expected.

 

 

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17 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I have a very ancient blue Coronation but have been put off getting the latest version by the front (huge holes at the handrails and the stripes not meeting in a point). So I stuck a Princess, the version before flangeless wheels became a thing, in front. It is incongruous but it has sound and my two-year-old grandson has a thing about whistles. It hauled all nine coaches with no trouble.

 

Incidentally, the Princess has sound, Hornby’s own sound from before TTS days. It’s been some time since I gave it a run and it showed how far we have come with sound. It comes to a stop still chuffing hard!

 

There is a fix for that, but I only know a crude one.

A friend of mine had a Princess factory fitted with a Loksound. It had a great coasting sound until he changed acceleration by using the momentum button on his Powercab.

That was some time ago & having seen information on here, the Momentum button makes other changes as well as CV3 & 4, one of which ruins the coasting sound.

We fixed it by factory resetting the decoder & barring use of the momentum button. I am sure there are some simple CV tweaks but I don't know what they are.

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19 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Nine coaches was a small express train on the WCML, most were about 14 coaches and many had 12 wheel dining cars.

 

 

I have read that before but I am not sure it is true because most platforms were not long enough to cope with 14 coaches.

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33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Could Euston, Crewe, Preston, and Carlisle? 

They could but & maybe also Rugby & Lancaster, but expresses served a lot of other stations too: Bletchley, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Stoke, Wigan, Warrington, Oxenholme, Penrith, Motherwell.

The rebuild of Euston had maybe 4 platforms which could cope with longer trains.

Would it really have been rebuilt like this if 14 coaches was normal?

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Nowadays, the WCML sees 11 coach Pendolino's which are 870' long (265 metres). If we take a loco length at about  70', that leaves the equivalent of 14 Mk 1 coaches to reach 870' - and of course the loco does not have to stop in the platform if the signalling allow which suggests that 14 coach trains could fit. However....

 

Looking at the DfT consultation for their introduction, a program of platform extensions was needed to allow the change from 9 to 11 car Pendolinos - nine stations were addressed: Lancaster, Lichfield Trent Valley, Northampton, Preston*, Stoke-on-Trent, Warrington Bank Quay, Watford Junction, Wilmslow and Wolverhampton. The inference from that is that Euston, Crewe, Glasgow were sufficiently long.

 

As an aside, the WCML was intended to be served by 14 car APTs at one point which were over 950' long :o

 

Roy

 

* I believe that Preston only had one platform that was sufficiently long for an 11 car Pendolino.

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

There is a fix for that, but I only know a crude one.

A friend of mine had a Princess factory fitted with a Loksound. It had a great coasting sound until he changed acceleration by using the momentum button on his Powercab.

That was some time ago & having seen information on here, the Momentum button makes other changes as well as CV3 & 4, one of which ruins the coasting sound.

We fixed it by factory resetting the decoder & barring use of the momentum button. I am sure there are some simple CV tweaks but I don't know what they are.

Thank you. Interesting. I suppose I could have the decoder reblown with an up-to-date sound project.

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44 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

Thank you. Interesting. I suppose I could have the decoder reblown with an up-to-date sound project.

In theory, yes.

I have 4 Duchesses factory-fitted with Loksounds & the early ones had only about 6-8 different sounds on them. I have tried looking for a re-blow, but all I found in the way of Princesses/Coronations were for Zimo.

 

I found the sounds themselves are ok & after a reset, the coasting is actually there, so I must admit that I gave up quite easily.

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39 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

In theory, yes.

I have 4 Duchesses factory-fitted with Loksounds & the early ones had only about 6-8 different sounds on them. I have tried looking for a re-blow, but all I found in the way of Princesses/Coronations were for Zimo.

 

I found the sounds themselves are ok & after a reset, the coasting is actually there, so I must admit that I gave up quite easily.

I think Olivia's and Howes still re-blow 3.5's, they will still have Duchess's, but like you I have a Lot of Duchess's and Princess's original Hornby sounds, and they're good enough for me.

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2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Nowadays, the WCML sees 11 coach Pendolino's which are 870' long (265 metres). If we take a loco length at about  70', that leaves the equivalent of 14 Mk 1 coaches to reach 870' - and of course the loco does not have to stop in the platform if the signalling allow which suggests that 14 coach trains could fit. However....

 

Looking at the DfT consultation for their introduction, a program of platform extensions was needed to allow the change from 9 to 11 car Pendolinos - nine stations were addressed: Lancaster, Lichfield Trent Valley, Northampton, Preston*, Stoke-on-Trent, Warrington Bank Quay, Watford Junction, Wilmslow and Wolverhampton. The inference from that is that Euston, Crewe, Glasgow were sufficiently long.

 

As an aside, the WCML was intended to be served by 14 car APTs at one point which were over 950' long :o

 

Roy

 

* I believe that Preston only had one platform that was sufficiently long for an 11 car Pendolino.

P3 &4 have always been very long platforms at Preston, as 3c and 4c south bays are interconnected to both, and were used for shunting right back to steam era sleepers. P3&4 also used to swallow long mail and parcels work.

P3&4 also hold full length Highland sleepers, a role they have eternally done, though for reasons unknown the Up uses the down and the down uses the up.

6B3F9493-D756-4AD4-AC12-20349EB6468C.jpeg.4bed2bc07e2d3e562d70fb91824b0d1b.jpeg

 

 

I know 5&6 have had mods / extensions (6 and 7 being ex L&Y platforms straightened at electrification in the 1960’s at the south end to point to the WCML rather than closed l&y).
A25D7409-12D3-4E83-8923-1AEFFD505087.jpeg.85fc336cf9289c31a2d7c3ed738859c8.jpeg

P5/6 also were extended more recently, again at the south end, but i’m not sure they would hold a full length pendo, that said above shows p5 and that one was stabled overnight.
 

FA9BF3F9-AC4F-4B7D-9BB9-494E2D210AB3.jpeg.02637a0b24812b0772c9d9d7b82dbb98.jpeg
(1989)

But p5/6 are still a good 4-5 coach lengths shorter than p3/4… Railtours often use them, but the loco generally hangs off the end.

 

401C3E61-B1DF-4FA2-8A68-B496C300BE3A.jpeg.571cbb35eeda1130fb90c4cc5adc5026.jpeg

(Taken from p4, looking a p5, and the extended p6 (46115 on), 2017.


There is a lot of waste at Preston, Behind p6 is p7, used only in Emergencies, and the original p1,p2 and bay still exist but are only used for stabling and freight, but are fully connected.

C99D50CF-B1BB-4EED-9446-7E1D6922A3B8.jpeg.fbfe777688ca46ed166f2fc892233a30.jpeg

As for Preston North End.. just like the club no amount of restructuring can make it any better…B2481910-AAA4-46DC-A07F-08366D22A597.jpeg.2217b4bfea933de97b78c0d60132e038.jpeg

this picture says a thousand words… the sleeper arrived circa 1am, locked up, with full greens the loco was sat unattended for the next 2 hours. The signal was cancelled after a while, the up sleeper arrived and the up driver took this back north… at 5am !!! tracksy showed nothing on the WCML between Preston and Carlilse…for that 2 hours.

now if the southbound is using Down platform P3, how can this sit with greens for 2 hours, without going wrong line north for considerable distance ?.. noting that Carlisle uses the down platform too, but it certainly doesn't wrong line up shap !.. was it just the signaller being lazy ?

 

Overnights at Preston aren't as exciting as they used to be when I was a kid…its missing the 4 mails, 6 parcels, and several separate FW, Inv, Abz, Gla, Edi sleepers rather than consolidated today…

BE0FC5F9-03A6-4C0F-A35B-21F1C8637E03.jpeg.eca36e421de31f5b2fa34f5395785bce.jpeg

 

but it really hasnt changed that much… Only time I ever rode APT was from Preston P3.

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

They could but & maybe also Rugby & Lancaster, but expresses served a lot of other stations too: Bletchley, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Stoke, Wigan, Warrington, Oxenholme, Penrith, Motherwell.

The rebuild of Euston had maybe 4 platforms which could cope with longer trains.

Would it really have been rebuilt like this if 14 coaches was normal?

 

Rather, the exception: a handful of the principal expresses of which I believe The Mid-Day Scot was the most notable. Also, with the subtraction and addition of Lancashire &c portions at Crew and Preston, the peak length wasn't there for the whole journey.

 

The move to the Inter-City principle, enabled by electrification, did away with the need for such heavy trains, as I understand it.

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3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I have read that before but I am not sure it is true because most platforms were not long enough to cope with 14 coaches.

 

Looking back through photos of the WCML, the majority of expresses at the Southern end were loaded well into double figures from LMS days well into BR steam. A good number undoubtedly divided on route, so as they progressed further North they would become shorter.

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/trentvalleylinside_tvl.htm

 

From photos of the period it shows that some of the named expresses and specials were the 'unusually' short expresses with less than 10 in tow, most everything else was huge unless it was a local stopper; even with 5XP haulage. Going right back to ex-LNWR haulage in early LMS days the trains were quite significant in length as well.

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Unless they gained Lancashire - Scotland portions?

 

Absolutely. Well photographed locations such as along Shap bear this out. I wonder where small LMS expresses being the norm, whether the writer is more familiar with ex-Midland routes where larger trains were a bit more unusual, though still by no means unusual.

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4 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I have read that before but I am not sure it is true because most platforms were not long enough to cope with 14 coaches.

 

They didn't have to be. You just need it to be long enough for that portion to stop at the platform.

 

Even now you get trains where the guard says "For station X use the first three or four coaches". Examples are when a train of more than one unit needs to stop at places like Winsford or Acton Bridge. Many of those trains are much longer than the platforms.

 

Also wasn't the V2s recorded pulling trains of up to 26 bogie coaches on the ECML on a regular basis during WWII?

 

 

Jason

Edited by Steamport Southport
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From the LMR, Western Division train load book of 1954 here are some of the train length restrictions.

 

Blackpool Central and North, 11 coaches

Edinburgh, Princess Street, 11 coaches

Keswick, 10 coaches

Leeds Central, 9 coaches

Leeds City, North, 11 coaches

Liverpool Lime Street, 13 coaches

Llandudno, 11 coaches

Manchester London Road, 11 coaches

 

There is no limit mentioned for Euston or Glasgow Central. The weight limit for full train timings of a class 8 locomotive between Carforth and Shap Summit was 570 tons, the most restricted part of the WCML. Passenger coaches were estimated at 30 tons each and 40 tons for a dinning car. This works out at a maximum of 17 passenger coaches, 16 if a dinning car is in the train. These would be standard LMS 57ft coaches. There is a note about using BR Mk1s regarding St Pancras 11 BR Mk1s or 12 LMS coaches.

 

From the book "Not more than 17 vehicles may be run on any loaded passenger train unless authorised by the Divisional Operating Superintendent, and in no circumstances must the number of vehicles exceed 20."

 

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Also wasn't the V2s recorded pulling trains of up to 26 bogie coaches on the ECML on a regular basis during WWII?

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

From what I have read it was once and 20 loaded coaches.

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1 minute ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

 

Hi Jason

 

From what I have read it was once and 20 loaded coaches.

 

Up to twenty was regular. It was 26 that was the one off. I'm sure it's in the Michael Bonavia History of the LNER books and almost certain it's in the OS Nock books.

 

It's mentioned on the Wiki page with the usual caveat.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_V2

 

 

 

Jason

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5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Up to twenty was regular. It was 26 that was the one off. I'm sure it's in the Michael Bonavia History of the LNER books and almost certain it's in the OS Nock books.

 

It's mentioned on the Wiki page with the usual caveat.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_V2

 

 

 

Jason

The mainline platforms at Kings Cross could only hold 14 coaches, another six plus loco would have put the loco would put the loco beyond signals 63, 169, 178, 188, 189, 199, 200 or 201, as well as the ones at the end of the platforms, blocking any arrivals to the suburban station, and limiting the arrivals to those east of the platform the train was in. As for departures form other platforms, again limited as to which platform the train was in. Another thing to take into consideration is marshaling a long train within the confines of Kings Cross, this too would restrict the usage of the other platforms while doing so.

 

As for 26 coaches arriving at Kings Cross the last three would be Gas Works Tunnel. With the pre 1977 station track plan Gas Works Tunnel was only about 9 coaches from the platform ends. Even less with this years extended platforms.

 

I am not saying it didn't happen once but regularly making half the station unusable?

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Although it says in that Wikipedia article that the 26 coach train was hauled from Peterborough to London, no-where does it explicitly state that the 20 carriage trains ran to or from Kings Cross. Is it possible that either (i) the trains did not in general run as far south as London or (ii) the trains were divided before the final run into Kings Cross, or in the down direction, combined after leaving? 

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4 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

The mainline platforms at Kings Cross could only hold 14 coaches, another six plus loco would have put the loco would put the loco beyond signals 63, 169, 178, 188, 189, 199, 200 or 201, as well as the ones at the end of the platforms, blocking any arrivals to the suburban station, and limiting the arrivals to those east of the platform the train was in. As for departures form other platforms, again limited as to which platform the train was in. Another thing to take into consideration is marshaling a long train within the confines of Kings Cross, this too would restrict the usage of the other platforms while doing so.

 

As for 26 coaches arriving at Kings Cross the last three would be Gas Works Tunnel. With the pre 1977 station track plan Gas Works Tunnel was only about 9 coaches from the platform ends. Even less with this years extended platforms.

 

I am not saying it didn't happen once but regularly making half the station unusable?

 

Wouldn't a long train making use of the most Eastern platform have no impact on the rest of the station? I though that  had a run straight out into its own road through the tunnel?


Roy

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6 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Wouldn't a long train making use of the most Eastern platform have no impact on the rest of the station? I though that  had a run straight out into its own road through the tunnel?


Roy

Hi Roy

 

Good for unloading the rear coaches as the passengers could use York Road Station. How would you get it out of the platform(s)? The eastern tunnel wasn't signaled for bidirectional working.

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1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

From the LMR, Western Division train load book of 1954 here are some of the train length restrictions.

 

Blackpool Central and North, 11 coaches

Edinburgh, Princess Street, 11 coaches

Keswick, 10 coaches

Leeds Central, 9 coaches

Leeds City, North, 11 coaches

Liverpool Lime Street, 13 coaches

Llandudno, 11 coaches

Manchester London Road, 11 coaches

 

There is no limit mentioned for Euston or Glasgow Central. The weight limit for full train timings of a class 8 locomotive between Carforth and Shap Summit was 570 tons, the most restricted part of the WCML. Passenger coaches were estimated at 30 tons each and 40 tons for a dinning car. This works out at a maximum of 17 passenger coaches, 16 if a dinning car is in the train. These would be standard LMS 57ft coaches. There is a note about using BR Mk1s regarding St Pancras 11 BR Mk1s or 12 LMS coaches.

 

From the book "Not more than 17 vehicles may be run on any loaded passenger train unless authorised by the Divisional Operating Superintendent, and in no circumstances must the number of vehicles exceed 20."

 

Hi Jason

 

From what I have read it was once and 20 loaded coaches.

 

That is a more useful than older photos.

 

Bear in mind that the majority of people photograph the less usual. These days, it would be loco hauled freight, the odd remaining 91/Mk4 set or HST in preference to the more common Pendolinos, Azuma's, Voyagers, Meridians, etc. & on the ECML, if an HST or class 91 appears, it would be more likely to get photographed.

It is not just a case of loco hauled v unit either. The APT-P would have been captured in preference to the 3 class 86s which followed.

Roll this back to steam days & if you could see a longer than usual train coming, you would be more likely to capture it on film. Anyone with lots of photos (most of us) would also be more likely to keep the unusual.

 

If major terminii like Leeds & Manchester London Road could only handle 9 & 11, why should they get shorter trains than Glasgow? When travelling from London, Manchester is the most popular long-distance destination on the WCML & there is no logical reason why this would have been different 70-80 years ago.

Taking acceleration times into account is a major headache for train planners (a friend of mine does it) & modern trains have better acceleration than their steam age counterparts, so inserting a 16 coach train between several 8-9 coach services would be something best avoided.

The London-Glasgow route has 2 extra problems for longer trains: Shap & Beattock. Both were challenging enough for steam locomotives even with moderate loads.

 

It is just that I've heard many times that trains were typically 14-16 coaches long, but there seem to be too many reasons for these to be the exception rather than the rule.

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1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Roy

 

Good for unloading the rear coaches as the passengers could use York Road Station. How would you get it out of the platform(s)? The eastern tunnel wasn't signaled for bidirectional working.

 

I thought that the left hand running line in York Road tunnel was signalled for departures? It definitely had a signal protecting it at one time.


As for unloading passengers, if a 20 coach train was being brought into King's Cross, somebody was going to have along walk!

 

Roy

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

As for unloading passengers, if a 20 coach train was being brought into King's Cross, somebody was going to have along walk!

I’m in the back coach of the highland sleeper next week, coach 16.. i’ll tell you what it feels like :-)

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