LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[Roy Langridge]

42 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I’m in the back coach of the highland sleeper next week, coach 16.. i’ll tell you what it feels like :-)

I once had to walk the entire length of Brussels Midi (500+ metres) station after a Thalys failure and we still had to be our designated seats. I was in the front coach of one train and the same coach was at the rear of the other. Made all the harder for all the passengers walking the other way!

 

Roy

[ikks]

I spent a lot of time at Tamworth in the late fifties/very early sixties, there were very few stopping trains on the low level, the most notable being the " 9'o clock stopper",usually Jubilee hauled,which we all rushed down to the "field" to see when our train arrived from Derby. Most of the other stoppers were non-descript fairly short loco headed trains or DMU s. We were there to see Princesses, Duchesses, Scots etc. which. with the exception of perhaps the Caledonian, seemed to be hauling far longer trains than we saw on the "Midland".

Rgds.......Mike

[Robin Brasher]

At the Central Southern 0 gauge exhibition at the Allendale Centre at Wimborne last Sunday there was an 0 gauge Coronation class locomotive easily hauling a rake of eight Coronation Scot coaches with lights. If it can be done in 0 gauge Hornby should be able to do it in 00 gauge.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

At the Central Southern 0 gauge exhibition at the Allendale Centre at Wimborne last Sunday there was an 0 gauge Coronation class locomotive easily hauling a rake of eight Coronation Scot coaches with lights. If it can be done in 0 gauge Hornby should be able to do it in 00 gauge.

 

Haulage power scales the other way:

A larger scale loco is heavier & typically has better compensation.

Pickups on trailing wheels & bearing drag do not scale linearly. These all favour larger scales.

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

At the Central Southern 0 gauge exhibition at the Allendale Centre at Wimborne last Sunday there was an 0 gauge Coronation class locomotive easily hauling a rake of eight Coronation Scot coaches with lights. If it can be done in 0 gauge Hornby should be able to do it in 00 gauge.

 

Well, no, not really. The amount of material in the carriages will scale roughly as the surface area (plus a bit for extra thickness), so the 7 mm scale carriages will be a bit over three times the mass of the 4 mm scale ones. The locomotive, on the other hand, can be stuffed full of lead, scaling roughly as the cube of the linear dimensions; it could easily have five times the mass of the heaviest 4 mm scale model - which, I gather, the Hornby Coronation isn't.

 

EDIT: crossed with @Pete the Elaner who mentions other relevant factors. 

 

A Gauge 1 live steam Coronation Scot is surely the way to go? 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Compound2632

[atom3624]

Mentioned several times within the perhaps 10-15 pages since issue, the Kitchen car is the problem.

 

The larger 65' '1st Open' for example is very smooth.

The shortests 50' Kitchen car is a pain! Even ensuring the wipers are correct it doesn't roll very freely - suspected to be moulded brake alignment on the wheels, amongst other things.

 

Al.

[IamDaniel]

I'm sure this has been covered in the 25 pages, but did crimson liveried locos in streamlined form (eg 6229) haul the Coronation Scot set, please? If not, I guess I'm best off waiting for Hornby to (hopefully) release the coaches in LMS maroon? Ta.

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, IamDaniel said:

waiting for Hornby to (hopefully) release the coaches in LMS maroon? Ta.

 

By the time the Coronation Scot carriages were back into service - not as a complete train - in LMS crimson lake, after the war (1946/7 IIRC), the red/gold streamliners had been repainted black (1943/4) - see the table here.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, IamDaniel said:

I'm sure this has been covered in the 25 pages, but did crimson liveried locos in streamlined form (eg 6229) haul the Coronation Scot set, please? If not, I guess I'm best off waiting for Hornby to (hopefully) release the coaches in LMS maroon? Ta.

 

Yes. There is photographic evidence of at least one crimson Coronation pulling the Coronation Scot, and blue ones pulling normal trains.

 

Here's 6228 with the set on the Midday Scot - presumably the spare set.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/ec42284b9

 

 

 

Be careful with 6229 as it spent much of the era in the USA masquerading as 6220 Coronation in red whilst 6220 was a blue 6229 Duchess Of Hamilton.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Princess_Coronation_Class_6229_Duchess_of_Hamilton

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/ec45d190f

 

I don't think I've seen any photographs of "normal" Duchesses in the 6230 to 6234 number range on the Coronation Scot though.

 

 

Jason

Edited January 25, 2022 by Steamport Southport

[Brocp]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. There is photographic evidence of at least one crimson Coronation pulling the Coronation Scot, and blue ones pulling normal trains.

 

Here's 6228 with the set on the Midday Scot - presumably the spare set.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/ec42284b9

 

 

 

Be careful with 6229 as it spent much of the era in the USA masquerading as 6220 Coronation in red whilst 6220 was a blue 6229 Duchess Of Hamilton.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Princess_Coronation_Class_6229_Duchess_of_Hamilton

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/ec45d190f

 

I don't think I've seen any photographs of "normal" Duchesses in the 6230 to 6234 number range on the Coronation Scot though.

 

 

Jason

Possible not pulling The Coronation Scot, but in the "Power of The Duchesses" book, Plate 52 shows 6231 with a Saturday Mid Day Scot with the Coronation Scot set.

 

Also "LMS Power The Coronation Class" has a picture of Black 5 5314 pulling the full Coronation Scot set on a special working.

[drt7uk]

Recreating a famous photograph...sort of.

 

The loco on the right is an old Rivarossi NYC Hudson. Ironically I've found it is also a bit slow pulling its own rake of coaches round (and I can't even blame a kitchen car) but it's quite an old model. Headlight still works though which is a bonus.

[sncf231e]

Nice, but it would be better to have the top picture also in black and white (since in the original picture the locomotive on the left was maroon and the locomotive on the right blue):

Regards

Fred

[drt7uk]

On 07/02/2022 at 20:25, sncf231e said:

Nice, but it would be better to have the top picture also in black and white (since in the original picture the locomotive on the left was maroon and the locomotive on the right blue):

Regards

Fred

 

Thanks Fred yes I did know this and actually posted a b&w version on Instagram alongside the colour version. Would love to see them produce the observation car used on this tour someday

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, drt7uk said:

Would love to see them produce the observation car used on this tour someday

 

That would have to be an H0 model...

[zoomer1979]

Well after finally getting my Princess Coronation sorted and fitted with sound, I finally got a chance to run it with its full intended train. And surprisingly it was able to haul the complete train with hardly a problem. Quite happy to finally see this train completed.

Neil.

 

[Johan DC]

Can't wait for my rake to come home here in Little Belgium. Will be almost a year since it came out. 

But then again, I don't have a layout yet... 😶

Enjoy it, it looks great! 

[Free At Last]

If these have all sold out, where did they come from, or are they Hattons original allocation arriving late.

Coronation Coaches.

[woodenhead]

Hattons are not able to pre-order stock I don't believe, but they can purchase stock from the warehouse.

[Free At Last]

Are they a second run?
I thought the original availability was so hard to get that people could not make a full rake.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Free At Last

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Free At Last said:

Are they a second run?
I thought the original availability was so hard to get that people could not make a full rake.

 

Second run with different numbers. The way to tell the difference is the new ones have an R number with five digits. You have to be careful as there are still some of the older ones knocking about in various retailers.

 

They are only just coming into stock. If they stick around I might get a second set. Last time I got most of them from Hattons and had to get the two missing ones from somewhere like TMC.

 

 

Jason

[Ravenser]

On 21/10/2021 at 14:29, Clive Mortimore said:

The mainline platforms at Kings Cross could only hold 14 coaches, another six plus loco would have put the loco would put the loco beyond signals 63, 169, 178, 188, 189, 199, 200 or 201, as well as the ones at the end of the platforms, blocking any arrivals to the suburban station, and limiting the arrivals to those east of the platform the train was in. As for departures form other platforms, again limited as to which platform the train was in. Another thing to take into consideration is marshaling a long train within the confines of Kings Cross, this too would restrict the usage of the other platforms while doing so.

 

As for 26 coaches arriving at Kings Cross the last three would be Gas Works Tunnel. With the pre 1977 station track plan Gas Works Tunnel was only about 9 coaches from the platform ends. Even less with this years extended platforms.

 

I am not saying it didn't happen once but regularly making half the station unusable?

 

 

Only just seen this , but I do recall reading in the past that it was known for heavy wartime trains leaving Kings Cross to be so long that the locomotive and first coach(es) were in Gasworks Tunnel. Passengers had to walk through the train to reach them

 

OS Nock , The Great Northern has a whole chapter on WW1 train working, with logs - it looks as if just over 500 tons tare (14-16 bogies) was the limit with Ivatt Atlantics by 1917-18. One southward run (Grantham -KX) with the Flying Scotsman probably  in1918 is quoted as 529 tons tare , 590 tons gross , 76 axles (= 19 bogies) with intermediate speeds of 71.5mph at Essendine, 27mph at Stevenage and Abbots Ripton,  60mph at Huntingdon and 69mph at New Southgate

 

Geoffrey Hughes , LNER , of WW2 : "Many trains were loaded in excess of 20 coaches, with which timekeeping , even to the decelerated schedules of the day, was impossible although records exist of prodigious efforts by Gresley Pacifics hauling trains of 800 tonnes or more ." That would certainly equate to 20 bogies or more . I've seen references to wartime trains drawing up twice at intermediate stations because they were far too long for the platforms.

 

The context of all this is that the number of mainline passenger services had been slashed to free up paths through the 2 track bottlenecks at the southern end of the ECML, and much fewer longer and slower mainline services were being run. If you kept mainline departures out of the peak (4:30pm -6:15pm) then gumming up the Widened Lines access for an hour would be acceptable. If it was a question of the night trains, then shutting down the Widened Lines service after 8pm or 9pm might well be acceptable in wartime

 

Nevertheless backing down and coupling on in the darkness of Gasworks Tunnel must have been something of a nightmare , acceptable only under wartime conditions. It was, I suppose, not so bad compared to being caught in an air raid.

 

Quote

From the LMR, Western Division train load book of 1954 here are some of the train length restrictions.

 

Blackpool Central and North, 11 coaches

Edinburgh, Princess Street, 11 coaches

Keswick, 10 coaches

Leeds Central, 9 coaches

Leeds City, North, 11 coaches

Liverpool Lime Street, 13 coaches

Llandudno, 11 coaches

Manchester London Road, 11 coaches

 

There is no limit mentioned for Euston or Glasgow Central.

 

 

From that, I'd say that as far as the LMS /LMR Operating Department was concerned , they were running an 11 coach passenger railway, with 13 coaches possible on Liverpool services if you ran non-stop Euston/Crewe and rather longer than that on Anglo Scottish services.

 

I've read that the LMS WCML Anglo Scottish day service between the wars was in fact dire in terms of frequency - amounting to the Royal Scot , the Midday Scot , and 2 semi-fasts . The Coronation Scot would therefore have been a useful boost..  The LNWR's policy was apparently a few heavy trains , which Midland men had tried and failed to change in the mid Twenties   (Though they may have had more success making this stick to Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham) 

 

So the steam age WCML may well have been 11 x 57' coaches as a norm , with one or two heavier Liverpool expresses, and a small number of Anglo-Scottish day trains, plus the night sleepers , loading to 14+ bogies. The stations with longer platforms may well represent the LNWR's assessment of regular stops on Anglo Scottish services - Rugby, Crewe, Preston and Carlisle

Edited January 18, 2023 by Ravenser
overestimation of average weight of GN coaches in WW1

[Ian Hargrave]

This is such an interesting dialogue. My late father served in  RAF Bomber Command (ground crew) most of whose airfields operated out of Lincolnshire for the duration of WW 2 .Thus most personnel travelled through London at some stage in their wartime service.Near to the Regents Canal if you choose to explore it is a blue plaque house denoting Guy Gibson’s occupancy for a while. Dad never forgot his journeys on leave via KX as he frequently regaled us with tales of V2 ‘s hauling trains into the station with their hind quarters stationary in Gasworks Tunnel. One thing stood out in his recollections was the “Sally Ann” ( Salvation Army ) handling  out refreshments on the station with an assortment of writing paper and envelopes above which was positioned a sign which read “ Have you written home ?” To his dying day he never forgot it.

 

[drt7uk]

Hi folks - I've tried to reduce the friction in these coaches including the kitchen cars, but I'm still not entirely satisfied with the top speed of my Coronation Scot and the full rake.

 

Has anyone tried adding weights to the locomotive? If so, how did you do this, how much space is there underneath the body shell, and do you have any photos to share?

 

Thanks very much! Apologies if this has already been discussed at length.

 

Cheers, David

[drt7uk]

On 28/08/2021 at 11:59, atom3624 said:

Extra weight will wear out a same-type drivetrain, relatively, I agree - but this will only be observed over many hours' running time - doubt I'll ever approach that.

Depending on how fabricated Hornby have had non-powered tenders weighing from stuff-all, to nearly loco weight (when using up the old tender-powered tender chassis) so they're obviously not that concerned.

I like to add a little to the locomotive - some you cannot, and/or is not necessary - Britannias and Royal Scots for example.

After that, if the tender's ridiculously light, as some are, presumably leaving space for speakers, etc., I add to make ~40% locomotive weight - which is less than Hornby's own tender weight when using up the tender drive units when locomotive driven.

Just a quick reminder, the reason adding weight was concerned in this thread was to aid traction wrt the high drag of some of the Coronation coaches - identified worst are the kitchen cars, of which there are 2 in the train.  I have both of mine 'ready for the bench again' and I know I'm not the most skilled, nor experienced, but will have another go.  The added weight was to aid the Coronations pulling this train 'realistically', without simply spinning the wheels up.

Understood, where inclines are concerned, if they come into the equation, Isaac Newton comes into the considerations, perhaps. Traction and momentum as well.

You have your way, I have mine - simples.

I'm not changing. I'm not 'playing any more tennis'.

Al.

Hello! Would welcome any tips or photos for how you added weights to yours. How easy is it to take the body shell off, and how much space is underneath there? thank you

[atom3624]

1 hour ago, drt7uk said:

Hello! Would welcome any tips or photos for how you added weights to yours. How easy is it to take the body shell off, and how much space is underneath there? thank you

Hi there.

I'm at work now, but it depends which streamliner you have - which 'tooling'.

The later / latest tooling will have the loco / tender cojoined by a bolted drawbar - easy enough to remove, and a 4-pin cable / socket - very fragile.

The earlier models will use the more robust - not without its faults - pin and fingers connection - tender pin into hole on locomotive drawbar, which has contact 'fingers' on top.

Once separated, bodyshell removal is very easy. Depending on model it could be lugs one end, a screw / bolt the other, or a screw/bolt at each end.

 

Once the bodyshell is removed, you'll see just how much room there is - don't think there's another this side of a spamcan Southern Railway Bulleid Pacific with so much room!

I used a piece or pieces of Pb sheeting, perhaps 1mm thick, folded to suit the contours of the body, and avoid the motor, other items.  This I've simply superglued into place - remained there ever since without issue.

Some will mention to be careful, but they've part filled the body with glue and lead shot, and have encountered expansion similar to MAZAK rot.

I'll target a locomotive only (not tender) gross weight of ~450g, so not TOO heavy.  This I'm certain is less than the weight of the recent H-Dublo diecast bodied Coronations with the same chassis.

 

Hope this helps.

Al.