LMS Coronation Scot Coaches

[Aire Head]

13 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

To clarify, I was referring to trains in general. Though I struggle to accept the whole train was turned after every trip.

 

I too find this unlikely 

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

I too find this unlikely 

 

Why not? The expresses were removed from the station for cleaning and most trains were reformed at the carriage sidings. Plenty of triangles about for turning, As an example the trains at Liverpool Lime Street were sent to Edge Hill for turning even in the modern era. I saw it happen all the time. 

 

Or don't people know how things were done in reality?

 

Even now when leaving LLS the First Class is at the London end on the Pendolinos.

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

12 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

.................. Even now when leaving LLS the First Class is at the London end on the Pendolinos.

Which suggests that they're NOT turned ................... ! ...........

[TheSignalEngineer]

29 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Plenty of triangles about for turning, As an example the trains at Liverpool Lime Street were sent to Edge Hill for turning even in the modern era. I saw it happen all the time. 

Sometimes to get them the right way round after a diversion involving reversal.

The other reason at outer terminii was if there was a control fault or broken window at the London end they turned it rather than cancel the train and the Euston people had to deal with it as they couldn't drive it back out. Saw it done at New Street

 Broken cab window on way into Euston. They send it back north. Meanwhile Birmingham decide rather than fix it, divert the return via Perry Barr and Aston to Stechford without reversal at New Street. "Somebody else has the problem now" was the quote of the day.

[wombatofludham]

I remember seeing a photo of the "North Wales Land Cruise" circular excursion that ran from Rhyl via Corwen, Dolgellau, Barmouth, Afon Wen, Caernarfon and back along the coast during the 1950s which had not only examples of the 1937 Corrie Scot stock but also an articulated pair of the US Expo 1939 coaches which had been returned post war, along with a Midland Railway diner, all in blood and custard livery.  Now that would give the visitors to the Dolgellau layout something to puzzle over.
 

Given their use on trains like the "Land Cruise" which would use ex-GWR kettles from Corwen (although not always, Standard 4s were common, and on one rare occasion, an LMS 4-4-0 carried on along the Cambrian metals after a loco failure) I wonder if that might be the origin of the Western transfer suggestion?

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I remember seeing a photo of the "North Wales Land Cruise" circular excursion that ran from Rhyl via Corwen, Dolgellau, Barmouth, Afon Wen, Caernarfon and back along the coast during the 1950s which had not only examples of the 1937 Corrie Scot stock but also an articulated pair of the US Expo 1939 coaches which had been returned post war........
 

I also remember seeing a picture of it with the 1939 Coronation Scot Brake with a gangway connector at the inner end only.

[Ian Hargrave]

6 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I remember seeing a photo of the "North Wales Land Cruise" circular excursion that ran from Rhyl via Corwen, Dolgellau, Barmouth, Afon Wen, Caernarfon and back along the coast during the 1950s which had not only examples of the 1937 Corrie Scot stock but also an articulated pair of the US Expo 1939 coaches which had been returned post war, along with a Midland Railway diner, all in blood and custard livery.  Now that would give the visitors to the Dolgellau layout something to puzzle over.
 

Given their use on trains like the "Land Cruise" which would use ex-GWR kettles from Corwen (although not always, Standard 4s were common, and on one rare occasion, an LMS 4-4-0 carried on along the Cambrian metals after a loco failure) I wonder if that might be the origin of the Western transfer suggestion?

 
A Colwyn Bay holiday in 1952 ....most of which I spent on the station platform....can confirm that. 
LMR motive power was an Ivatt Mickey Mouse.

[robertcwp]

It may at first sight seem unlikely that the whole set was turned after each journey, but turned it was. 

 

If anyone does not believe this, I challenge you to find a photo of the train in normal service with the first-class end leading. I have not yet found one. In fact, don't stop at one, find lots of photos, especially of the southbound train, with the first class end leading, just to show that any such event was not a one-off because something prevented the stock from being turned.

 

There was an earlier thread on this topic a few years ago, which I initiated after I made the discovery whilst looking at the photos in the two Edward Talbot books. However, it didn't get very far. I have some email correspondence somewhere where the turning working at the Glasgow end was identified. I think the turning at the London end was done in the Willesden area.

 

You can very easily tell one end of the set from the other. The brake third had two sets of double doors and the kitchen car at the third class end was the third carriage. At the first class end, the brake first had one set of double doors and the kitchen car was the fourth car in from the end.

 

You are all very welcome to prove me wrong.

[TheSignalEngineer]

13 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I think the turning at the London end was done in the Willesden area.

When I was involved in the southern end of the WCML I turned engineering trains in three different ways in the Willesden area and those connections all existed in 1937 AFAIK. 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

20 hours ago, robertcwp said:

If anyone does not believe this, I challenge you to find a photo of the train in normal service with the first-class end leading. I have not yet found one. In fact, don't stop at one, find lots of photos, especially of the southbound train, with the first class end leading, just to show that any such event was not a one-off because something prevented the stock from being turned.

 

Think I will concede on that challenge.

Had a quick look around tonight but most of the pictures I have are the northbound train with 3rd leading. The only clear southbound one showing much detail of the train also has the 3rd leading.

Edited January 9, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer

[robertcwp]

The second Edward Talbot book - the one with the red cover - has lots of good photos of the Coronation Scot going both ways. Third class is leading in every one. 

 

Something else I had forgotten about until looking at the Talbot books again was that when the train began, it carried carriage boards above the windows, but in 1938 these were dispensed with and the train's name painted on. I wonder which version Hornby will do?

 

I also found the email correspondence I had with Edward Talbot and some of the people who helped him with the book and no one had been aware that the stock was turned or why or where. The only suggestions as to where were by reference to post-war practice in turning the West Coast Postal sets.

[Pete the Elaner]

Your observation comes as a surprise to me, but it is based firmly on photographic evidence, so you can't really argue with it.

 

My layout is a genuine WCML location & has bi-directional fiddle yards.

I guess I'll have to invoke rule 1 by running run both up & down services with the 1st class at London end. 

[Compound2632]

Re. the orientation of the train. As mentioned, with the first class at the rear of the train, first class passengers had the shortest walk. It might be thought that this would be offset by a longer walk on arrival but I think that at both Euston and Glasgow Central, the train would have arrived at one of the platforms either side of the cab road, so passengers could go straight from train to taxi from anywhere along the train. I'd be interested if anyone can confirm this suspicion.

 

The LNWR practice of keeping the corridor on the west side of the train, as in the 1893 and 1908 2pm stock, didn't apply to the Coronation Scot as most of the seating was in open coaches.

 

Also, as has been mentioned, the train would be taken from the arrival platform to the carriage sidings for cleaning, being returned to the departure platform the following day - plenty of time and opportunity for turning, certainly in Glasgow - but where in London? 

 

By modern standards, the utilisation of the stock was very poor - three sets of carriages for one journey in each direction per day. 

 

Many of the Scotch expresses by the Midland route included a reversal at Leeds, so if you were handy for the barriers at St Pancras, you'd be handy for the barriers at St Enoch. Hamilton Ellis writes of the passenger who, intent on making the most of the Pennine scenery, had made sure to reserve a seat facing the engine only to find himself going backwards over Aisgill.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, robertcwp said:

I also found the email correspondence I had with Edward Talbot and some of the people who helped him with the book and no one had been aware that the stock was turned or why or where. The only suggestions as to where were by reference to post-war practice in turning the West Coast Postal sets.

Postal sorting vehicles with pick-up apparatus had to be turned as the net and doors were only provided on one side. Otherwise you had to use a pair with one each way round.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

plenty of time and opportunity for turning, certainly in Glasgow - but where in London? 

Willesden by using the North London to form a triangle? Carriage lines, City Lines, Kensal Green Junction / reverse / Acton Wells / reverse / Acton Canal Wharf, Willesden No.7, LL Goods. was one of the options I used for an engineers train  some years back IIRC.

[Compound2632]

11 hours ago, robertcwp said:

The only suggestions as to where were by reference to post-war practice in turning the West Coast Postal sets.

 

8 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Postal sorting vehicles with pick-up apparatus had to be turned as the net and doors were only provided on one side. Otherwise you had to use a pair with one each way round.

 

To my mind, the fact that the Postal was turned is sufficient additional evidence (beyond the photographic evidence) to convince that the Coronation Scot was turned, or at least that arguments against it being turned collapse.

[Wickham Green]

11 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

................ I guess I'll have to invoke rule 1 by running run both up & down services with the 1st class at London end. 

You'll have to find space for a triangle .................. or a dirty great cassette !

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

You'll have to find space for a triangle .................. or a dirty great cassette !

 

Or, if you've got a roundy-roundy, two sets.

[Pete the Elaner]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

You'll have to find space for a triangle .................. or a dirty great cassette !

Could you imagine an 8' cassette?

I had enough trouble fitting a real section of WCML into the space I had in the first place. I was not very happy when I found the only suitable location also had the DC lines, for which I will have to look at kits & modified RTR (ok, proper modelling).

I designed the layout for the class 90 era of push-pull operation but bottled it when thinking of building catenary ... so did the scenic section for late 30's first.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Could you imagine an 8' cassette?

I had enough trouble fitting a real section of WCML into the space I had in the first place. I was not very happy when I found the only suitable location also had the DC lines, for which I will have to look at kits & modified RTR (ok, proper modelling).

I designed the layout for the class 90 era of push-pull operation but bottled it when thinking of building catenary ... so did the scenic section for late 30's first.

 

I don't need to imagine an 8' cassette. I know someone who has them on a layout. Not a good idea.

 

Anyway, 8' is not going to cut it for a Coronation Scot, is it?

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Could you imagine an 8' cassette?

I had enough trouble fitting a real section of WCML into the space I had in the first place. I was not very happy when I found the only suitable location also had the DC lines, for which I will have to look at kits & modified RTR (ok, proper modelling).

I designed the layout for the class 90 era of push-pull operation but bottled it when thinking of building catenary ... so did the scenic section for late 30's first.

 

You presumably know that suitable DC lines stock is available in 3D print from rue d'Etropal of this parish? I think that they would fit the 57' Replica motorised chassis so not too difficult a project.

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

To my mind, the fact that the Postal was turned is sufficient additional evidence (beyond the photographic evidence) to convince that the Coronation Scot was turned, or at least that arguments against it being turned collapse.

 

At the Scottish end it would be easy enough to turn by running it round the Cathcart Loop.

[Pete the Elaner]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I don't need to imagine an 8' cassette. I know someone who has them on a layout. Not a good idea.

 

Anyway, 8' is not going to cut it for a Coronation Scot, is it?

 

I wasn't counting the loco because I have 3 blue streamliners  so would want to change them. 8' should just about do it. for the coaches.

I have used 4' cassettes & found them awkward enough that they have prejudiced me against cassettes, let alone long ones.

 

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

You presumably know that suitable DC lines stock is available in 3D print from rue d'Etropal of this parish? I think that they would fit the 57' Replica motorised chassis so not too difficult a project.

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I have seen some Oerlikons on shapeways' site, but couldn't find all vehicles when I looked.

I have too many unbuilt kits already, so they can wait for another time.

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

4 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

 

Thank you for pointing this out. I have seen some Oerlikons on shapeways' site, but couldn't find all vehicles when I looked.

I have too many unbuilt kits already, so they can wait for another time.

 

 

Simon can point you in the right direction but I am fairly sure that all of the Oerlikon stock is there. He has also done the GEC units which may be even more necessary to you.

[5 C]

On 09/01/2020 at 11:59, jf2682 said:

I have been busy checking photos of the Up trains and it seems that in all cases except the record attempt the leading vehicles are the third class.  Quite an interesting observation from RobertCWP!

Accept his challenge!!

JF

 

The record breaking run train only had eight coaches, rather than the nine used in regular service. The contemporary documentation doesn't record which coaches were used and in what order. From the photos it looks as though one of the kitchen cars was dispensed with.

[Compound2632]

24 minutes ago, 5 C said:

 

The record breaking run train only had eight coaches, rather than the nine used in regular service. The contemporary documentation doesn't record which coaches were used and in what order. From the photos it looks as though one of the kitchen cars was dispensed with.

 

Well, that was a saving on crockery.