Pete the Elaner Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 According to my records (which may not be 100% correct) the blue 5 got their double chimneys: 6224: May 1940 6221: November 1940 6223: November 1941 6222: August 1943 6220 was painted wartime black in March 1944, therefore being the only streamliner to carry wartime black with a single chimney until a double was fitted in December 1944. If any of this is inaccurate, please let me know. I was talking to someone at a model railway show last year who mentioned that he went into Bedford shed as a 5 year old (in the war) & saw something which he only remembers as being big & blue with silver stripes, later realising that it can only have been one of the blue 5 in store. Does anybody know exactly when this service stopped running? The only information I can find says "at the start of the war" but I can't imagine it was withdrawn on the day war was declared. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 15 hours ago, robertcwp said: The model of 6224 has a double chimney, which was only fitted to the real thing in 1940, so would not be appropriate for the Coronation Scot. Edit: if you look carefully at the images, they are different as the double chimney reaches as far forward as the seam whereas the single one does not. That's not new tooling though. I have a previous model 6220 (which I renumbered 6229 ) which has a single chimney. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 4 minutes ago, jf2682 said: Hmmm. Hard to believe any of the Duchesses would have been stored during the war; everything one reads suggests all big engines were pushed to the limit. The exception that is well known is the USA tour set which were kept their for a couple of years before being returned. Apparently the most valuable assets were stored briefly in the hope that the war would be resolved quickly, then they could be re-instated without any unnecessary damage. As events unfolded, they war dragged on & nobody could afford to keep useful items like Duchesses in store. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 7, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) I understand that the stock was originally stored at Horwich and Lostock Hall at the start of the war. Around the end of the war it was decided by the LMS Board that it couldn't justified to resume the service given the state of the country and particularly the railway infrastructure. At some time the trains were moved back south to go through the works to be put to ordinary use. I can see some justification for storing a nice shiny blue and silver engine prior to repainting as it would provide a highly visible and prestigious target for the enemy. Edited February 7, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 7, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said: Around the end of the war it was decided by the LMS Board that it couldn't justified to resume the service.................. Just checking through one of Davd Jenkinson's books and found reference to a memo to the Board from the Chief Operating Manager date 29 May 1946. It refers to the 1937 Blue and Silver sets having been put into store in September 1939 and recommends "that they be painted in normal livery and utilised in our best passenger trains in the same way as other ordinary stock" The Board agreed and the stock was brought back out of store. As an aside the stock for the 1939 which was not completed, along with the USA set was stored at mainly at Abergavenny and Spondon. This was taken to Derby late in 1944 but work was on an as and when basis, other jobs taking priority, the last vehicles not being completed until 1951. The kitchen twin from the USA set was stored at Craven Arms and apparently never went into service being scrapped in 1952. Edited February 7, 2020 by TheSignalEngineer 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said: ....... The kitchen twin from the USA set was stored at Craven Arms and apparently never went into service being scrapped in 1952. Shame it didn't hang about out of sight at Craven Arms and get rescued with assorted Control Train coaches ............ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted February 7, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2020 35 minutes ago, Wickham Green said: Shame it didn't hang about out of sight at Craven Arms and get rescued with assorted Control Train coaches ............ Allegedly the uneven loading was a problem and had a tendency to twist the chassis. One of the bogies was thought to have been pinched at that time to replace one on the Chairman's Saloon. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 Uneven loading was inevitable with Kitchen Cars - more so than other side-corridor stock ........ the Southern resorted to lead weights on the opposite solebar ( as nicely depicted by Hornby ) - I don't know what other Railways used. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2020 Odd question, but why were some maroon and some blue ? and why was the 1939 stock built anyway ? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, adb968008 said: Odd question, but why were some maroon and some blue ? and why was the 1939 stock built anyway ? The blue sets were intended solely for the Coronation Scot service. The first 5 locos were painted in this livery & where possible, the Coronation Scot was worked with one of these. The next 15 streamliners were expected to run with existing red coaches & it was felt that red with gold stripes would match these better. The set of red coaches with gold stripes was a prototype set painted to match Duchess of Hamiton (but carrying name/number 6220 Coronation) on a tour around America. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: The set of red coaches with gold stripes was a prototype set painted to match Duchess of Hamilton (but carrying name/number 6220 Coronation) on a tour around America. Not quite so. The intention had been to build three new sets of coaches for the Coronation Scot, to enter service in 1940, making use of articulation to reduce the weight of the train (or at least to ensure that with more seats, it wasn't heavier). Some articulated pairs (but not a complete train) were built by late 1938 to be ready for the American tour. Work continued on the remaining coaches with the intention that they would be ready when the American tour train returned but on the outbreak of war they were put to one side. In the spring of 1944, work on these resumed at Derby, partly as a way of re-training staff who had been working on aircraft contracts before the start of mass-production of standard carriages. As the Coronation Scot service was not resumed after the war, these carriages never appeared in the red-with-gold-stripes livery; in fact no coaches ran in service in Britain in that livery. Likewise the 1937 Coronation Scot coaches returned to general service in 1947 as individual vehicles, not complete set trains, and repainted in standard post-war LMS coach livery. Ref. R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) chapter 13. Edited February 10, 2020 by Compound2632 2 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Not quite so. The intention had been to build three new sets of coaches for the Coronation Scot, to enter service in 1940, making use of articulation to reduce the weight of the train (or at least to ensure that with more seats, it wasn't heavier). Some articulated pairs (but not a complete train) were built by late 1938 to be ready for the American tour. Work continued on the remaining coaches with the intention that they would be ready when the American tour train returned but on the outbreak of war they were put to one side. In the spring of 1944, work on these resumed at Derby, partly as a way of re-training staff who had been working on aircraft contracts before the start of mass-production of standard carriages. As the Coronation Scot service was not resumed after the war, these carriages never appeared in the red-with-gold-stripes livery; in fact no coaches ran in service in Britain in that livery. Likewise the 1937 Coronation Scot coaches returned to general service in 1947 as individual vehicles, not complete set trains, and repainted in standard post-war LMS coach livery. Ref. R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969) chapter 13. So by 'not quite so' you actually meant 'you missed out this'... Besides which, the question I was responding to was why the set was red, not blue. Edited February 11, 2020 by Pete the Elaner 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 11, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: So by 'not quite so' you actually meant 'you missed out this'... Besides which, the question I was responding to was why the set was red, not blue. Fair enough. One question (or answer) leads to another. I think it was the use of the term "prototype set" that didn't sit quite right to my mind - they coaches that went to America (with the exception of the club car, I think) were intended to be part of the three trains ordered with the original intention that they went directly into service. Edited February 11, 2020 by Compound2632 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted February 15, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2020 (edited) On 06/01/2020 at 21:35, robertcwp said: No one seems to know. It might have been to keep them away from the engine. Perhaps the pressure ventilation was inclined to suck in the exhaust? On aircraft 1st class is at the front for ease / speed of boarding & unloading and convienience. But Concorde only ever seem to use 1 gate at JFK.. the one closest to the terminal entrance/exit. business travellers are prone to being a bit last minute... Having 1st class closest to the barriers would be a time saver and a convenience... plus as a regular you will always know where 1st class is.. awaiting your arrival as soon as you passed the barrier. This principal still applies for northbound services today from London.. 1st class is at the London end.. shortest walk on arrival to and departure from London. Was it any different in the 1930’s ? This was a premium train, that extra mile would be expected ? - 2/6 for a reservation, no standing. Wouldnt this explain it ? How variable was its platforms at London & Glasgow ? Edited February 15, 2020 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom3624 Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 There was a question earlier on to 'new tool', replied with the screwdriver was replaced. It of course refers to the new tooling of the streamlined Coronations from last year, and the latest models are simply additions to the initial ones - 6229 Hamilton and 6244 KG VI. Al. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2020 I just happened to catch Vivian Ellis' Coronation Scot on the radio this morning; an odd juxtaposition of typical light music lyricism and more Edgar Varèse-ish locomotive imitation. I couldn't decide whether the latter was just generic locomotive noises or particularly imitative of a Coronation pacific! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenceb Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 Mr Ellis was a GWR fan and Corination Scott apparently is suposedly a castle in full flight on the Cheltenham Flyer! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2020 40 minutes ago, laurenceb said: Mr Ellis was a GWR fan and Corination Scott apparently is suposedly a castle in full flight on the Cheltenham Flyer! Well, they're both 4-cylinder locomotives descended from Churchward's Stars... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted February 18, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2020 ... or perhaps I should have said, Alfred de Glehn's 4-cylinder compound 4-4-2s, but being compounds the exhaust would have sounded markedly different. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2020 Something that may interest folk, regarding the turning of the trains, that I found in correspondence relating to tyre profile wear on No.2 Coronation Scot train... 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 13 minutes ago, Islesy said: Something that may interest folk, regarding the turning of the trains, that I found in correspondence relating to tyre profile wear on No.2 Coronation Scot train... Good find! 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted March 2, 2020 Share Posted March 2, 2020 15 minutes ago, jf2682 said: Excellent find as Robert says. The reference to different profiles is interesting - were cylindrical wheel treads used experimentally, instead of the 1 in 20 cone type? John Has the cone profile always been accepted as standard? The initial aim of the APT project was to find the reason for vehicles hunting at speed & prevent it. Tilting got most of the publicity, followed by better braking but the hunting issue got relatively less publicity. Could the current standard have been a result of this research? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Islesy Posted March 2, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 2, 2020 2 hours ago, jf2682 said: Excellent find as Robert says. The reference to different profiles is interesting - were cylindrical wheel treads used experimentally, instead of the 1 in 20 cone type? John From the previous page in the report... 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandwich station Posted March 7, 2020 Share Posted March 7, 2020 I notice that 5 of the 9 coaches are sold out on pre-order at Hattons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted March 7, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, sandwich station said: I notice that 5 of the 9 coaches are sold out on pre-order at Hattons. People not ordering the complete train? What's the point? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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