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LMS Coronation Scot Coaches


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  • 2 weeks later...
On 27/03/2020 at 12:20, Graham_Muz said:

Although there is a small error in that the Hornby 6224 Princess Alexandra is not suitable for the Coronation Scot as it has a double chimney, not fitted to the real thing until early in WW2, by which time the Coronation Scot had ceased running.

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20 hours ago, robertcwp said:

Although there is a small error in that the Hornby 6224 Princess Alexandra is not suitable for the Coronation Scot as it has a double chimney, not fitted to the real thing until early in WW2, by which time the Coronation Scot had ceased running.

That's why they release R 3857 Coronation 6220, the first runner with the Coronation Scot train.

 

Anyone noticed the colour in their colour scheme, they mentioned the following " RAL 9006/ RAL 5011, lining position vital! To match R3858 etc."

First R 3858 does'nt exist on Hornby 's site , i assume they ment R 3857, second Ral 9006 for lining is silver white, but RAL 5011 looks very dark to me and not near Caladonian blue.

RAL colours acording internet search, but RAL 5011 is much darker than Coronation 6220 loco colour.

 

 

 

r4963a-lms-coronation-scot-rk.jpg

RAL 9006.png

RAL5011.png

r3857_princess-coronation-steamlined-coronation_1_1 (1).jpg

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3 hours ago, 5 C said:

Is RAL5011 the outer edge of the lining? Although often represented as plain silver stripes, they were in fact silver edged in a blue black.

If we look at the body colour of the scheme, it looks more on the RAL 5011 colour as presented in my reply, don't think there will be an extra lining,

can not see such lining on all the pictures, movies i've seen of these coaches and loco's . 

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51 minutes ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

If we look at the body colour of the scheme, it looks more on the RAL 5011 colour as presented in my reply, don't think there will be an extra lining,

can not see such lining on all the pictures, movies i've seen of these coaches and loco's . 

 

The photo is from Jenkinson and Essery volume 1. It shows the arrangement and detail close up of the Coronation Scot coach lining. Specifically figure L "Shows upper and lower band of K illustration, silver edged with darker blue line".

 

4A0CBF19-3120-488E-BBFC-B45E74DB3B9E.jpeg.52829e17ef19edd0d33f8080aa5f5d03.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Cor-onGRT4 said:

 don't think there will be an extra lining, can not see such lining on all the pictures, movies i've seen of these coaches and loco's . 

 

@5 C, thanks for posting that - I don't have the multi-volume version of Essery & Jenkinson, only the 169 one-voulme The LMS Coach. Do they give dimensions for the fine lining? Presumably it was identical to the lining of the locomotives. D. Hunt et al.LMS Locomotive Profiles No. 11 (Wild Swan, 2008) give the following for the blue engines: 

  • wide stripes - 1/2 in dark blue, 5 in silver, 1/2 in dark blue
  • narrow stripes - 1/2 in dark blue, 1 1/4 in silver, 1/2 in dark blue
  • narrow stripes 4 3/4 in apart, wide stripes 5 in either side of them.

The dark lining is very evident in photos of 6220 in works grey - which you could argue is not evidence - but also of the same engine in service in service, op. cit. p. 137 and 6221 in service, p. 138. It is unsurprising that it does not show up in enthusiasts' b/w lineside photographs and, especially, in film given the quality of the film stock used. 

 

The red stripe livery for locomotives was basically the same as the blue livery, with the substitution of gold for silver and black for dark blue. There was, however, an additional refinement of a 1/8 in vermillion line between the black and gold, overlapping the black and gold equally (so that the width of the black edging was 1 1/8 in and the gold stripes were 1/8 in narrower than the silver stripes [Op. cit.]. The black lines - but not the vermillion - are visible in a photo of 6227 on 29 August 1938, op. cit. p. 138. The vermillion line follows standard passenger carriage painting practice, providing better contrast between the black and gold. The black / dark blue line provides better definition of the gold / silver stripe against the crimson lake / Caledonian blue body colour. Colour photo of the ersatz-Coronation on the North American tour here. Having only online photos to judge by, I'm unsure whether the NRM's 12 in/ft reconstruction of a streamlined locomotive in the red stripe livery or the support coach have this fine lining - judge for yourselves

 

Anyway, the dark blue lines are there on R3623 (6221 in blue) so presumably they will appear on the carriages.

Edited by Compound2632
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50 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

@5 C, thanks for posting that - I don't have the multi-volume version of Essery & Jenkinson, only the 169 one-voulme The LMS Coach. Do they give dimensions for the fine lining? Presumably it was identical to the lining of the locomotives. D. Hunt et al.LMS Locomotive Profiles No. 11 (Wild Swan, 2008) give the following for the blue engines: 

  • wide stripes - 1/2 in dark blue, 5 in silver, 1/2 in dark blue
  • narrow stripes - 1/2 in dark blue, 1 1/4 in silver, 1/2 in dark blue
  • narrow stripes 4 3/4 in apart, wide stripes 5 in either side of them.

The dark lining is very evident in photos of 6220 in works grey - which you could argue is not evidence - but also of the same engine in service in service, op. cit. p. 137 and 6221 in service, p. 138. It is unsurprising that it does not show up in enthusiasts' b/w lineside photographs and, especially, in film given the quality of the film stock used. 

 

The red stripe livery for locomotives was basically the same as the blue livery, with the substitution of gold for silver and black for dark blue. There was, however, an additional refinement of a 1/8 in vermillion line between the black and gold, overlapping the black and gold equally (so that the width of the black edging was 1 1/8 in and the gold stripes were 1/8 in narrower than the silver stripes [Op. cit.]. The black lines - but not the vermillion - are visible in a photo of 6227 on 29 August 1938, op. cit. p. 138. The vermillion line follows standard passenger carriage painting practice, providing better contrast between the black and gold. The black / dark blue line provides better definition of the gold / silver stripe against the crimson lake / Caledonian blue body colour. Colour photo of the ersatz-Coronation on the North American tour here. Having only online photos to judge by, I'm unsure whether the NRM's 12 in/ft reconstruction of a streamlined locomotive in the red strip livery or the support coach have this fine lining - judge for yourselves

 

Anyway, the dark blue lines are there on R3623 (6221 in blue) so presumably they will appear on the carriages.

 

I've looked through both Ted Talbot's "The Coronation Scot" and all three volumes of Jenkinson & Essery and can find no measurements of the lining for the coaches of the blue Coronation Scot sets. The latter goes into considerable detail about the lining of general service Crimson Lake coaches, but nothing about the blue coaches. 

 

My re-read though has thrown up something I was always curious about but never certain. In Jenkinson & Essery volume 1 at the bottom of page 52, it states:

 

"Since this work was first published, evidence has been examined which proves that a fourth variety of the circular LMS emblem was provided for use with the blue painted 'Coronation Scot' sets of 1937. This emblem was identical to the normal version but with lettering and surrounds rendered in silver. Very few transfers could have been made - almost certainly one batch only - for only 27 coaches were painted in this style".

 

The paint specification diagram released by Hornby shows the emblem colours of yellow, red orange and green but no silver. @Islesy, Hornby and others may wish to note. I can't find any reference to what this "evidence" was or where it was found. 

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5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Anyway, the dark blue lines are there on R3623 (6221 in blue) so presumably they will appear on the carriages.

 

Thanks ,indeed, i've looked at the youtube review of Sams trains of 6221 and in the closeups you can clearly see those dark outer lines, i never noticed these before, so very fine they are.

I don't have the blue one , only Duchess of Hamilton in Crimson, 

But for the ordered coaches i will have Coronation 6220, think this will go a stunning train.  

Edited by Cor-onGRT4
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  • 1 month later...
On ‎09‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 22:00, robertcwp said:

The second Edward Talbot book - the one with the red cover - has lots of good photos of the Coronation Scot going both ways. Third class is leading in every one. 

 

Something else I had forgotten about until looking at the Talbot books again was that when the train began, it carried carriage boards above the windows, but in 1938 these were dispensed with and the train's name painted on. I wonder which version Hornby will do?

 

I also found the email correspondence I had with Edward Talbot and some of the people who helped him with the book and no one had been aware that the stock was turned or why or where. The only suggestions as to where were by reference to post-war practice in turning the West Coast Postal sets.

I don't actually have the Edward Talbot book yself, and I have only been able to find pictures of the front of the train, so perhaps someone can tell me have if the sets carried a special tailboard on the last coach as the Royal Scot did in BR days.

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1 hour ago, GeoffBird said:

I don't actually have the Edward Talbot book yself, and I have only been able to find pictures of the front of the train, so perhaps someone can tell me have if the sets carried a special tailboard on the last coach as the Royal Scot did in BR days.

Don't think the Talbot book answers that question. I can't think of a photo showing the rear end board.

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On 29/03/2020 at 12:10, Cor-onGRT4 said:

That's why they release R 3857 Coronation 6220, the first runner with the Coronation Scot train.

 

Anyone noticed the colour in their colour scheme, they mentioned the following " RAL 9006/ RAL 5011, lining position vital! To match R3858 etc."

First R 3858 does'nt exist on Hornby 's site , i assume they ment R 3857, second Ral 9006 for lining is silver white, but RAL 5011 looks very dark to me and not near Caladonian blue.

RAL colours acording internet search, but RAL 5011 is much darker than Coronation 6220 loco colour.

 

 

 

r4963a-lms-coronation-scot-rk.jpg

RAL 9006.png

RAL5011.png

r3857_princess-coronation-steamlined-coronation_1_1 (1).jpg

 

 RAL 5011 is a lining colour not the main body colour, see the Hornby Coronation loco lining and print diagram here

es-r3623-artwork-2_1.jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 months later...
8 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:

September edition of TES has images of the tooling samples for their LMS Coronation Scot coaches:

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/developing-Hornby-far-wide?fbclid=IwAR0ZhENuXv9gUGP8Lfy5XX6arQBXVWCQO3rMqVP54o_a0L2VIDd6y1QjCO8

 

well , it's gone now

 

try it on the site of Hornby, but no new ES, maybe later on.

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Loverly! Have a set on order for Shap so good to see some development on these, given the current world circumstances.

 

Wondering whether they'll have adaptable / different roof mouldings so that the vehicles might eventually be available as ordinary service vehicles?

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8 minutes ago, atom3624 said:

Hornby are becoming as annoying and marriage-threatening as Accurascale!!

 

Loving these as well.

 

I hope they delay thoughts for red / gold ones - they were only in blue weren't they?

 

Al.

 

Yes, they were only in blue.

From memory:

There was only 1 set of red ones. They were intended to be prototypes for a new design. They were brand new when they went to the US to tour with 6229 Duchess of Hamilton (which carried 6220 Coronation name & numbers). No more of the type were built so the set remained a 1-off.

I am not sure if they ever ran in service in the UK. If they did, they lost their gold stripes.

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Yes, they were only in blue.

From memory:

There was only 1 set of red ones. They were intended to be prototypes for a new design. They were brand new when they went to the US to tour with 6229 Duchess of Hamilton (which carried 6220 Coronation name & numbers). No more of the type were built so the set remained a 1-off.

I am not sure if they ever ran in service in the UK. If they did, they lost their gold stripes.

 

The red set were quite different from the carriages forming the 1937 blue sets, so one certainly can't re-livery one of the blue sets and claim any sort of authenticity. The 1939 train was to have been mostly made up of articulated pairs of carriages. As @Pete the Elaner says, one red set went, along with a made-over sleeping car, straight to the US - even this wasn't a complete train as intended for WCML service. Work on the remaining carriages stopped in 1940, at which point all the underframes were complete. After the war, these were completed as ordinary service stock (in standard livery) and along with the returned and refurbished US tour carriages, mostly found use on ex-L&Y routes in Lancashire - the prestige Manchester-Southport and Liverpool-Blackpool trains.

 

Ref. R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969).

Edited by Compound2632
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2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Loverly! Have a set on order for Shap so good to see some development on these, given the current world circumstances.

 

 

 

I wonder if Hornby will package these up as a complete set? They'd make a great 'presentation box' if the whole rake was included. (Would be easier to order too rather than each coach singly...!)

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

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"the LMS was considering enlarging the Duchess design to a 70 foot grate 4-6-4.  Would make a nice possibility for Hornby to practice their freelancing skills."

(The original post from which this is taken appears to have 'evaporated')

 

A model would doubtless be impressive, but the outline proposal reveals the problems with fitting it into the UK's rail network limitations. 24T axleload, and only 12T of coal for a locomotive likely to consume 60lb of coal a mile. (There's little point in going for such an enlarged grate mechanically stoked beast unless planning to burn plenty of coal for a considerable continuous power output advance over the existing 50 sq ft grate pacific.)

 

Had it been built I suspect the regular 10T of coal in the standard tender would have helped with getting it turned on a 70' turntable, and deployment on the Crewe-Glasgow section so that the mightiness could be employed where most required to  'flatten' Shap and Beattock might have been more practical. Alternatively an overline coaler at Crewe to top up enroute (as employed in the US for the F7 4-6-4s on the Hiawatha) to overcome the coal capacity problem without need for the new enlarged eight axle tender. None of which need for a moment concern a model maker of course. Don't recall ever seeing a scratchbuilt model come to that.

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