Dapol 2020 Program

[Mad McCann]

On 12/01/2020 at 15:54, ThaneofFife said:

 

oh for petes sake why are you making this about the wildfires in OZ?   stop making such utterly ridiculous comparisons and maybe try and stick to that context instead.

 

Maybe he’s just trying to put a bit of perspective on a pretty insignificant First World problem.

It’s called ‘empathy’.

 

Davy.

[The Johnster]

Have to agree with Mad McCann on this one; not saying that the Oz fires aren't off topic, but we have contributors to this site living there whose homes, livellihoods, and possibly lives are threatened, and a bit of empathy is not out of place IMHO!  We, most of us at least, live in the UK where such natural disasters are fortunately rare; a bit of flooding now and then and an occasional storm that intrudes on our lives.  No bush fires, no volcanoes, no tsunamis since the Storegga Slide*, and only small earthquakes, but this is no reason to be dismissive of the problems of others less fortunate in the place they live.  

 

 

*There might have been one in the Bristol Channel in 1605, or it might simply have been a spring tide combined with a storm surge...

[csiedmo]

The purpose of being here is to discuss “first world problems”. If every time someone has a model railway related issue, someone else replies that they ought to be thankful that they’ve got a roof over their head, it’s going to get pretty tedious. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 09:43, Roy L S said:

... I would be over the moon with just one LNER tank loco...

There's any number of potential subjects, but a quick scan of the numbers and distribution reveals that the J67/69 is 'the one' to go after, now that Bachman have repeated the J72 and V3, and have a G5 on the way, Hornby have the J52, J94 and L1, and Oxford have taken the N7. Petite, attractive, some very good livery choices, no competition in any of the scales Dapol operate in, integrates well with models in their own ranges, and other available RTR.

[rembrow]

With Dapol now having got to the decorated sample stage for it's n gauge prototype hst power cars and coaches, could Dapol upscale to oo gauge, as they have done the research and produced drawings. With Rapido/Locomotion having deferred their proposed model and Rapido appearing to cool it's interest in the UK prototype market, there is an opportunity, possibly with Locomotion. If Hornby succeed with their APT p there must be a viable market for the HSTp with correct coaches.

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

With Dapol now having got to the decorated sample stage for it's n gauge prototype hst power cars and coaches, could Dapol upscale to oo gauge, as they have done the research and produced drawings.

 

The research helps, the drawing to a point.  But it is in many ways still effectively an entirely new CAD drawing when you change scales.

 

But the biggest cost is still the tooling, so it would still be a significant investment for Dapol to make the model in OO.

 

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

 

With Rapido/Locomotion having deferred their proposed model and Rapido appearing to cool it's interest in the UK prototype market, there is an opportunity, possibly with Locomotion. If Hornby succeed with their APT p there must be a viable market for the HSTp with correct coaches.

 

When Rapido proposed the Prototype HST the feedback received was that a lot of people would only be interested if the correct Mk3 coaches were also produced.

 

At the time the indication was Rapido considered the idea, in part because the only competition was the problematic Hornby Mk3 coaches.

 

While there was several issues that put the Prototype HST on hold, the announcement by Oxford of a range of Mk3 coaches starting with the Mk3a was certainly a factor as it now meant a Rapido Mk3 would be a 3rd model on the market (because in part the Prototype HST Mk3 coaches only make sense if you also do the tooling to allow for the more lucrative regular Mk3's).

 

To a certain extent we are still in that position.  While the Oxford Mk3 isn't as big a threat (for several reasons), Hornby have a newly tooled Mk3 arriving.

 

So the question becomes would the Prototype HST sell enough without the corresponding coaches?  The answer just over 4 years ago appears to have been a perhaps to a no.

 

It would appear, that unless Hornby do it, anyone wanting to produce the Prototype HST will need to go up against Hornby in the Mk3 market.

 

(the success of the APT-P model will have little relevance to the potential for the Prototype HST, the APT-P is a far more iconic train and thus far more interesting to potential purchasers).

 

 

[Roy L S]

On 28/01/2020 at 11:20, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

There's any number of potential subjects, but a quick scan of the numbers and distribution reveals that the J67/69 is 'the one' to go after, now that Bachman have repeated the J72 and V3, and have a G5 on the way, Hornby have the J52, J94 and L1, and Oxford have taken the N7. Petite, attractive, some very good livery choices, no competition in any of the scales Dapol operate in, integrates well with models in their own ranges, and other available RTR.

 

I was referring to N Gauge where not one LNER tank loco is available RTR.

 

Best Wishes

 

Roy

[rembrow]

On 28/01/2020 at 15:42, mdvle said:

 

The research helps, the drawing to a point.  But it is in many ways still effectively an entirely new CAD drawing when you change scales.

 

But the biggest cost is still the tooling, so it would still be a significant investment for Dapol to make the model in OO.

 

 

When Rapido proposed the Prototype HST the feedback received was that a lot of people would only be interested if the correct Mk3 coaches were also produced.

 

At the time the indication was Rapido considered the idea, in part because the only competition was the problematic Hornby Mk3 coaches.

 

While there was several issues that put the Prototype HST on hold, the announcement by Oxford of a range of Mk3 coaches starting with the Mk3a was certainly a factor as it now meant a Rapido Mk3 would be a 3rd model on the market (because in part the Prototype HST Mk3 coaches only make sense if you also do the tooling to allow for the more lucrative regular Mk3's).

 

To a certain extent we are still in that position.  While the Oxford Mk3 isn't as big a threat (for several reasons), Hornby have a newly tooled Mk3 arriving.

 

So the question becomes would the Prototype HST sell enough without the corresponding coaches?  The answer just over 4 years ago appears to have been a perhaps to a no.

 

It would appear, that unless Hornby do it, anyone wanting to produce the Prototype HST will need to go up against Hornby in the Mk3 market.

 

(the success of the APT-P model will have little relevance to the potential for the Prototype HST, the APT-P is a far more iconic train and thus far more interesting to potential purchasers).

 

 

While I don't disagree with anything you've stated, there have been some changes in the market that may give hope. First is the approach to the 50th anniversary of the prototype set, secondly the commercial tie up between Locomotion models, Rails and Dapol to produce two planned, so far, locos from the national collection. The inclusion of Rails has spread the development costs so they are not borne solely by Locomotion or Dapol. With the production versions now certainly going to hit 50 years in service, with the latest upgrades, that surely makes the prototype and production type an iconic train.

Like the recently announced 18000 gas turbine, the HST prototype also saw several years of mainline service on the Western Region, thus spreading it's interest to those modelling the Western mainline in the 70s. I don't know if it will be modelled, but I think 2022 is the most likely target time.

Edited January 30, 2020 by rembrow

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, rembrow said:

While I don't disagree with anything you've stated, there have been some changes in the market that may give hope. First is the approach to the 50th anniversary of the prototype set, secondly the commercial tie up between Locomotion models, Rails and Dapol to produce two planned, so far, locos from the national collection. The inclusion of Rails has spread the development costs so they are not borne solely by Locomotion or Dapol.

 

While we don't know how the development costs are spread, retailer commissions generally are going to be paid for entirely by the retailer.  Dapol might kick in some money / give a discount if say they get to use the molds in x years, but for a lot of the stuff Rails is currently doing it is questionable how much of market may exist in 5 years.

 

Locomotion's involvement is unknown, but it could simply be the ability to give a project prestige in addition to the giving access.

 

The biggest difference though is not in the funding, but rather in the change in economics.  With Rails as the commissioner an entire segment has been eliminated - the distributor cut - from the markup of the model.  While this doesn't get us consumers a cheaper model, it decreases the number of models that need to be sold in order to cover the development costs.

 

Quote

With the production versions now certainly going to hit 50 years in service, with the latest upgrades, that surely makes the prototype and production type an iconic train.

 

There is no question the HST is an iconic train - certainly the most iconic train ever built for British Rail.

 

But that doesn't apply to the very different looking Prototype HST, which has largely been forgotten to history.

 

Quote

Like the recently announced 18000 gas turbine, the HST prototype also saw several years of mainline service on the Western Region, thus spreading it's interest to those modelling the Western mainline in the 70s. I don't know if it will be modelled, but I think 2022 is the most likely target time.

 

That argument was I believe used at the time of the Rapido announcement, and it wasn't very convincing to prospective customers back then so I am not sure it will be very convincing in the future.

 

One of the problems will be that the 70s have already passed as a prime modeling era - if one believes that one of the major modeling eras is when we reach approx. 50 (to allow for the space/time/money of having grown up kids) and want to model what we saw as teenagers - then we should be in the 80s / early 90s as the prime era now.

 

Neither of my replies is to say it won't be done - we have certainly seen stuff done that surprises people.  And you may be right in that a 50th anniversary helps to "boost" the collectibility potential to increase sales.

 

(the 18000 gas turbine is somewhat different, in that it is from the still popular late steam era)

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by mdvle

[truffy]

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

 the 70s have already passed as a prime modeling era

 

As one who grew up in the 70s, all I can say is TFFT! The decade that taste forgot.

[HereticUK]

On 28/01/2020 at 14:20, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

There's any number of potential subjects, but a quick scan of the numbers and distribution reveals that the J67/69 is 'the one' to go after...

 

I can confirm that, if it was brought to O gauge, I would most likely make a purchase of such a pretty little engine.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 11:47, Roy L S said:

I was referring to N Gauge where not one LNER tank loco is available RTR.

Yes, but surely it is worth looking at the whole RTR N, OO and O market picture for a prototype that offers an operation like Dapol the maximum potential use of the research for all three scales? A 'native' LNER tank loco with 100+ in class and no competitor in any commercial scale, offering all of wide distribution, longevity in service, authentic colourful lined out liveries and some of the petite factor that is behind the Terrier's perennial popularity.

 

[caradoc]

On 30/01/2020 at 22:03, truffy said:

 

As one who grew up in the 70s, all I can say is TFFT! The decade that taste forgot.

 

I resent that remark ! My flares and polo-necks were extremely stylish (at the time........)

 

[truffy]

23 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

I resent that remark ! My flares and polo-necks were extremely stylish (at the time........)

 

 

So were my high-waisters and shirt collars. Not to mention the paisley....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎31‎/‎01‎/‎2020 at 20:51, HereticUK said:

...I would most likely make a purchase of such a pretty little engine.

This is one of several once popular 'pretty little tank engines' that seem to have dropped out of consideration for RTR models in more recent years. A few others in the same group are the LT&SR 4-4-2T, CR 0-4-4T, NLR 0-6-0T, GWR 'metro' and LNWR 'chopper' 2-4-0T's. Maybe just the luck of the draw, and their turn is imminent?

[Les1952]

I did suggest to Richard Webster that having dropped the N-gauge J72 a J69 would fill the gap admirably.  He asked me to see what there were in the way of drawings.

 

Isinglass do a good set showing some variations.  Then there is the York archive, with so many drawings of variations in the J67/J69 classes it would seem it got close to 160 locos no two of which were the same....

 

I sent on the (long) list of drawings but have  heard nothing since.  I can only assume that the J67/J69 was just too varied to make a viable r-t-r model.  This might also explain why nobody else has touched a class with this many members and a geographical range from Southend to Scotland and North wales.

 

Les

[HereticUK]

22 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

This is one of several once popular 'pretty little tank engines' that seem to have dropped out of consideration for RTR models in more recent years. A few others in the same group are the LT&SR 4-4-2T, CR 0-4-4T, NLR 0-6-0T, GWR 'metro' and LNWR 'chopper' 2-4-0T's. Maybe just the luck of the draw, and their turn is imminent?

Ooof, any of those models would be absolutely wonderful!

[TomE]

The Dapol 2020 'updatable' catalogue is online now:

 

http://www.Dapol.co.uk/Catalogue/24/index.html

 

Nothing new in there at the moment, and a few items existing models showing "New range coming" or "New range to be announced" indicating there will be reliveries, but we don't know what yet. 

 

Tom. 

 

 

 

 

[classy52]

Well they're doing two new TPE Class 68's in Q3 2020, that was a good move.

[woodenhead]

I note from Facebook that Dapol had committed to a new M7 with a DCC chassis - nothing in the catalogue yet.

[faulcon1]

On 14/01/2020 at 16:00, 47606odin said:

As someone living in Australia, bad as it may be here, by all means donate to the many charities asking for donations,

Don't give to the charities like Red Cross and St Vincent De Paul because they've taken million of donations but they've only given a fraction of the money out. Red Cross said it was holding onto the donated money for "other" disasters and "administrative costs" which is not what people gave their money for.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stefen1988]

Nice are the new Maunsell Coaches with Large Windows in N.

[D9020 Nimbus]

On 06/02/2020 at 16:49, woodenhead said:

I note from Facebook that Dapol had committed to a new M7 with a DCC chassis - nothing in the catalogue yet.

That's good news—the existing M7 isn't the best of runners, and hopefully the new chassis will have performance as good as (say) the 57xx. Let's hope they'll also get round to the 45xx/4575 and the Ivatt tank.

[Stefen1988]

The 0-4-4T M7 and Maunsell Restaurant and Push-Pull Coaches would be nice to.

[The Johnster]

Since we're degenerating into a bit of wishlisting, please please please pretty please Dapol can we have a 00 Diagram N auto trailer.  A Diagram N all of my very own, and I would love it and feed it and clean it's hutch and take it for walks and look after and everything.  Ideally no.38 in BR crimson...