Manifold Valley Minerals

[Mark Forrest]

A bit of progress over the weekend.  Holes drilled and uncoupling magnets test fitted. 

Because the track base is only 9mm thick, the magnets are sitting too high, they should be level with the top of the sleepers.  I'm waiting for a delivery of washers to resolve this.

 

On the subject of sleepers, I've made a start putting down the timbers for the single slip and one of the turnouts.

 

Even managed a little progress with wagons too.  One of the Cambrian Kits LMS D1666 has started to receive lettering, while the other has just gained its brake levers and a coat of paint. Similarly the Midland D299 has also gained brakes and paint.

 

 

[wagonbasher]

On 01/06/2020 at 20:18, Mark Forrest said:

Thanks Geraint, I suspected that might be the case.

 

In my made up history of the line, the branch from the quarry follows the course of an earlier tramway, for at least part of its route.  If I have space for it, I was thinking of maybe including some disused stone sleeper blocks after the quarry branch has diverged from the original route.  Whether any rails would remain on this disused section is probably debatable, although it is tempting!

 

You could use the discarded stone 'sleeper' blocks as part of an embankment / cutting side like these.

 

I believe they are ex LNWR and form part of the approach to 'Bagnall's bridge (castle street / railway street) in Stafford

Andy

[Mark Forrest]

6 hours ago, wagonbasher said:

 

You could use the discarded stone 'sleeper' blocks as part of an embankment / cutting side like these.

 

I believe they are ex LNWR and form part of the approach to 'Bagnall's bridge (castle street / railway street) in Stafford

Andy

I had no idea that is what those are, very interesting.

 

I was thinking mine would still be in situ, on a path diverging from the quarry line, something like:

 

Although have seen seen other examples where they have been used to build a wall so that’s a possibility.

[Mark Forrest]

Current activity on the layout has been focused on trying to get a better understanding of what wagons would have been used to carry limestone in the 1925-30 period, see separate topic here.

 

Meanwhile, I’m slowly making a start on the track.  I’ve filed and soldered 5 of the 8 (hope I’ve counted that right) vees and last night started to thread some chairs onto the straight stockrail of the first turnout.

[Mark Forrest]

Research into the wagons for the layout has prompted me to think about who owned/operated the quarry that will provide the traffic flow.

 

Looking at the 1925-30 period (which is where I intend to start, although stock for other eras may follow at some point), this seems to have been a period of consolidation in the industry.  Taking Caldon Low as an example, at grouping ownership passed from the NSR to the LMS, although they subsequently leased it to J Hadfield & Sons, it (along with Hadfield’s other quarry assets) eventually becoming part of Derbyshire Stone Ltd in 1935.

Similarly at Matlock, Constable Hart & Co took over the Station Quarry from Josiah Smart at some point in the late 1920s, it and their neighbouring Cawdor Quarry, again becoming part of Derbyshire Stone Ltd in 1935.

 

My current thoughts are that the quarry on the layout will have recently been taken over by somebody like Constable Hart, this will allow me to run a few of their private owner wagons alongside a fleet of mainly railway owned vehicles.  POWsides do suitable transfers for Constable Hart 5 plank RCH opens.

[Mark Forrest]

One of the photos that I found when searching for details of what wagons might be used on the quarry traffic was this view of Smart’s Quarry at Matlock in 1928.

https://www.andrewsgen.com/matlock/pix/matlock_station04_quarry.htm

 

This got me thinking about the front siding on the layout.  My original thoughts had been that this siding might be used for general goods traffic and agricultural supplies, but the proximity of the siding to the front of the layout might make this difficult as I had planned to slope the ground level down towards the front of the layout.

 

So, just trying this for size...

 

Obviously, the lorry is a bit too modern, but you get the idea.  Operationally, it would call for a small fleet of internal user wagons carrying stone from the crusher (off scene, along with the rest of the quarry workings).  Not sure how or if I’d unload the wagons, simple lift out loads would be the most straightforward way of doing it.  It does come with a small problem, as you can see from the blu-tack wheel chock the siding slopes down so I might need to think about some way of stopping the wagons in the right place for unloading.  Ground level is around a scale 12’ below track level.

[Stubby47]

Wire-in-tube poking up between the rails, holding the axle.

[Mark Forrest]

5 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

Wire-in-tube poking up between the rails, holding the axle.

Yes, that’s what I was thinking, obviously needs to be hidden amongst the supports for the elevated track though.

 

In theory, once a wagon has been emptied the “brake” could be released and the next wagon rolled into its place, which could be handy if I could work out a way to empty the wagons through their bottom doors.

 

 

[Stubby47]

How to empty the wagons.

 

Triang used to make the R404 hopper bridge with working wagons. The wagons had a door with a wire 'handle' and a sprung latch to hold the door up and closed. As the wagon was pushed over the bridge the latch was knocked open by a long, protruding lineside block and the door would drop open. A bit further on the wire handle was pushed up and the door was raised. At this point the latch was released.

 

By using servos you could achieve the same with a static wagon.

 

The wagon would need a hinged door and a latch ( on the non-viewing side).

Propel the wagon into position and a servo with a horizontal cam is used to push the latch to open the door.

Use a second servo with a wire-in-tube to push the door shut from below, then reverse the first servo to let the latch spring shut, and reverse the second servo to move the wire out of the way.

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks for that Stu, I’d been giving it some thought, although it’ll probably be a while before I move on to experimenting with different ways of doing it. I’d been focusing on trying to get the operating lever underneath the wagon, but you raise a good point in suggesting it could be on the non-viewing side.

I hadn’t thought about closing the doors after the load has been dropped, to be honest I was thinking the empties would run back to the fiddle yard with their doors open.  I’d been thinking two doors with the hinge lengthways along the wagon (inside of the solebars) rather than a single door hinged across the wagon as per Tri-ang.

 

The wagons themselves would be relatively simple, just a flat floor with holes cut in it.  My thinking was that the two doors would overlap at the centre of the wagon, one of the having a length of brass wire protruding to engage in a hook shaped latch.  Where I’d got stuck was how to open the latch.  Difficulty is fitting all this in an area 20mm wide by 24mm long to fit between brakes (single sided) and the sprung axleguard units, although I could probably build these rigid, freeing up some space around the axles.

 

Having just said it would be a while before I experiment with this, you’ve now got me wondering if I have any expendable kits that I could use to give it a try 

[Stubby47]

If you make the two doors hinged lengthways and keep them above rail head height when open, you could run them back off-scene open (but they'd be visible, unless they were transparent ?).

 

How about using the AJ wire as the latch ?

 

As you push the loaded wagons in, the wire would hold the door/s shut, but as you pull away, the wire moves a few mill so allowing the door to open ?

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Tufts of "grass" sticking up between the rails could hold the wagons, or at least shield the operating rod if you go down that avenue?

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

If you make the two doors hinged lengthways and keep them above rail head height when open, you could run them back off-scene open (but they'd be visible, unless they were transparent ?).

 

How about using the AJ wire as the latch ?

 

As you push the loaded wagons in, the wire would hold the door/s shut, but as you pull away, the wire moves a few mill so allowing the door to open ?

AJs further complicate things, given that the mounting point for each coupling is at the opposite end of the wagon

 

One way around this would be to hinge the doors along the centreline rather than behind each solebar, so the open doors fall down either side of the coupling wires.  However, that means the latch needs to act on both doors whereas my previous idea meant only one latch held both doors closed.

 

Think I'm OK with the open doors being visible when the empty wagons are shunted away, the doors will be partly hidden by the brake gear so think I can live with that compromise if it simplifies the latch mechanism.

 

I can see I'm going to have to start playing around with some bits if brass and plastic...

[Stubby47]

Further thoughts on opening the wagons.

I'm assuming you'll be using DCC control on this.

If the extra high sided wagons have a steeply angled floor to help discharge, you might be able to fit a chip and servo under the voids. The servo could either just open the latch, or directly open/close the door/doors.

[Mark Forrest]

That does sound like an idea that’s worth further investigation Stu.  I know nothing about DCC control of servos so would need to find out a bit more.  Alternatively I wonder whether radio control might be the answer, having seen what a few people are able to do with 00/H0 road vehicles.  I’m slightly tempted to get hold of one of the Carson H0 VW camper vans, wonder if its steering mechanism could be made to operate the doors?

 

Of course, once you start thinking along these lines, the next stage must be servo operated brakes to hold the wagons in the right place for unloading...

[Stubby47]

I imagine the DCC control for a point motor would be very much the same - you probably won't fit a Cobalt or Tortoise in the wagon, but you might be able to use a cut down Hornby or similar one.

 

[Mark Forrest]

After a quick Google, I’m not hugely optimistic about using servos to operate the wagon doors.  While it looks like it might be possible to get a nano servo that would (just about) fit, most of the DCC decoders that will talk to servos seem to be too big, being intended to fit under baseboard to operate turnouts etc.

 

An accessory decoder and memory wire might be an option though. 

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Ruston of this parish has a fiendish operating hopper wagon using magnets.

I can't work out how to link, but a search should find it, it's under Calder Vale Coal or something similar.

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

On 22/06/2020 at 08:48, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Ruston of this parish has a fiendish operating hopper wagon using magnets.

I can't work out how to link, but a search should find it, it's under Calder Vale Coal or something similar.

 

Mike.

Yes, think I've seen that on one of my many random Googlings of the subject, must take another look.

 

Using magnets to activate the discharge makes me slightly nervous; I can foresee 10 scale tons of limestone being dumped on the track when I accidentally operate one of the uncoupling magnets at the wrong time...

[lanchester]

On 09/06/2020 at 17:57, Mark Forrest said:

I had no idea that is what those are, very interesting.

 

I was thinking mine would still be in situ, on a path diverging from the quarry line, something like:

 

Although have seen seen other examples where they have been used to build a wall so that’s a possibility.

The old Young's 'Ram' Brewery in Wandsworth had various bits of walling made of blocks from the Surrey Iron Railway. I believe the site has been redeveloped 'retaining the historic' bits (including a beam engine?), but whether these blocks have survived I don't know. Young's started there in 1831, but as a brewing site it predated the Surrey Iron by several centuries.

[Alister_G]

On 22/06/2020 at 08:43, Mark Forrest said:

After a quick Google, I’m not hugely optimistic about using servos to operate the wagon doors.  While it looks like it might be possible to get a nano servo that would (just about) fit, most of the DCC decoders that will talk to servos seem to be too big, being intended to fit under baseboard to operate turnouts etc.

 

An accessory decoder and memory wire might be an option though. 

 

 

Mark, have you seen the stuff that @Pikey (J P Models) does in 1/76th scale? He uses tiny actuators to create radio-control 00/H0 vehicles. If he can fit working steering etc into a 1/76 van, I'm sure that the stuff he uses could be an option for your wagon doors, not radio controlled of course, but possibly by electrical pickup from a third rail or something?

 

Take a look here:

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140552-j-p-models-more-radio-controlled-vehicles-in-176-scale/&do=findComment&comment=3800576

 

Al.

 

[Mark Forrest]

Not much activity on the layout for the past few months, other than doing few bits on a couple of the wagons for it.  This week though I did find myself inspired to do a bit more on the track at the entrance to the exchange sidings.

 

At this stage, most of the rails are just placed in position or located by a pin that holds them temporarily in place.  I've got another printout of the Templot plan on my workbench so am able to file and bend the rails to shape then transfer them over to the layout where (hopefully) everything slots together; that's the theory anyway...

[Mark Forrest]

A few more bits of rail added over the past couple of days.

 

I want to get these two turnouts done first before moving on the double slip, have never built one before so there is a learning curve ahead!

[Mark Forrest]

Over the past few days, I've been giving some thought to tie bars.  On my first attempt to build finescale track (in EM on Foundry Lane) I used a copper clad sleeper which the blades were soldered directly to.  Despite having learned since that this approach can cause issues with the soldered joints failing they proved to be reasonably reliable. 

 

On Fryers Lane, I switched to using Exactoscale tortoise adapters beneath the board, connected to dropper wires soldered to the blades.  This allows the droppers to pivot in the tubes on the actuator.  To date these have been reliable too, but lack any representation of a tie bar, which is something I'd like to do better next time.

 

So I want something that is reliable, easy to make and looks reasonably realistic. My first attempt was a copper clad sleeper, on edge with the ends filed down to fit under the stock rails.  To this I soldered dropper wires to connect to the tortoise mount and short lengths of L shaped brass wire to connect to the switch blades.  It seemed to work, but isn't pretty.

 

Next up I've tried using thinner wire and handrail knobs to transfer the movement from a copper clad sleeper to the blades.

The wire (brass, 0.33mm) is soldered to the inner handrail knobs, my theory is that the thinner wire will flex rather than putting too much stress on the soldered joints.  It was quick and easy to set up and used materials that I have to hand.  It goes some way to providing a functional tie bar, although the need to have a gap between the two sides is a bit of a pain.  Not sure if this design is the winner or whether to do some further experiments.  Rather than a copper clad sleeper, I might use a rectangle to copper clad 22mm by 5mm which would fill the gap between the crossing timbers and be painted ballast colour to disguise it.

[Middlepeak]

Hi Mark,

 

For my P4 Friden layout I have TOUs mounted under the boards, with 1.6mm dia brass tubes running up through the board and cork underlay and 0.7mm brass wire inside them, soldered to the point blades and to the bottom end of the tube. This allows a degree of torsion of the wire, but the tubes can still flex a little.

 

 

To make the assembly more rigid, which also maintains the correct clearance at the toe of the blades, I've made tie bars using 1.0mm x 0.5mm U section brass.  A short length of the U is filed flat and bent through 90 degrees to form an L shape. Two of these pieces are then soldered to either side of a piece of thin copper clad paxolin, which insulates the centre of the tie bar.

 

The tie bar is then soldered to same location on the rail as the operating wire from the TOU, which gives a neat but strong joint.

 

For the second tie bar, the joints are reinforced with a small loop of 0.3mm brass wire hooked over the top of the tie bar, with the nose of the loop pushed over the bottom flange of the rail and into the web.

 

 

No problems at all with operation and no broken joints as yet (famous last words?!!).

 

Hope this helps.

 

Geraint 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Middlepeak