Manifold Valley Minerals

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks Geraint, that helps a lot, I like the look of those tie bars.  I'd looked at the Ambis Engineering ones, but found them a bit fiddly for my clumsy fingers.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Pardon me whilst I think aloud.

If the switch blades are being operated underneath the baseboard by droppers, is there any need for a metal tiebar, I doubt that a tiebar thin enough to be scale is imparting any strength to the operation anyway, or am I missing something.

I'm an RAB and have only used copperclad in varying thicknesses and widths, other than many many years ago I used an SMP fibre glass version, what a disaster that was!

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

Here's what I did on Fryers Lane as an example of what I'm trying to improve upon.  Tie bars are conspicuous by their absence

 

[Mark Forrest]

Also thinking aloud...

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

It's getting a bit noisy round these parts!

 

Mike.

[Indomitable026]

1 hour ago, Mark Forrest said:

Here's what I did on Fryers Lane as an example of what I'm trying to improve upon.  Tie bars are conspicuous by their absence

 

 

I hope you don’t mind me mentioning but you’re missing a fishplate...

 

touché.. 

 

(from the Internet Quality Assurance Dept)

 

 

[Mark Forrest]

While I'm still mulling over my options for tie bars, I'm reluctant to fix down the stock rails on the first two turnouts.  I think some of the methods I've been looking at would be a pain to install on a finished point.  I also wasn't entirely happy with the common crossing at the right hand end of the double slip, so I lifted that and made another.

 

With that (hopefully) sorted, I've started forming the rails for the double slip.  This being the first one I've made, I spent a bit of time looking at prototype photos to get my head around what goes where.

 

For a break from track, I've got a couple of Parkside mineral wagons on the workbench too.

 

[DonB]

Just read through from page 1, and the comments about canal versus river struck a chord. I have walked and cycled the Manifold trail a few times and know some cavers and potholers  who frequent the area, and tell me that since the Manifold dives underground over part of its course there are areas where all there is to see in hotter summer months is a dry stream bed. They have run dyes into the river to trace its underground course, without as far as i know, any firm conclusions. 

The reason for the above is to suggest that you could make a dry water-course given the R. Manifold's nature.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by DonB
spellin

[Mark Forrest]

9 hours ago, DonB said:

Just read through from page 1, and the comments about canal versus river struck a chord. I have waked and cycled the Manifold trail a few times and know some cavers and potholers  who frequent the area, and tell me that since the Manifold dives underground over part of its course there are areas where all there is to see in hotter summer months is a dry stream bed. They have run dyes into the river to trace its underground course, without as far as i know, any firm conclusions. 

The reason for the above is to suggest that you could make a dry water-course given the R. Manifold's nature.

 

 

Thanks, that’s very interesting and also a timely reminder that it haven’t given much thought to the scenic side of the layout design for a while.

 

Looking back at the photos I took when I visited the area last year, something like this stream was what I had in mind running from the back to the front of the layout and passing under the line.

[Mark Forrest]

Another possibility for tie bars that I've just stumbled upon while reading something else (in particular the round bar type) is 0.8mm diameter glassfibre rod. Obviously would need some way of attaching it to the blades, but it should allow for a one piece bar between the rails.

 

Edit to add: after further Googling I've found it as small as 0.6mm.  Now wondering if it would be possible to solder short lengths of tube to the blades, then fit the rod into those...

 

 

[Mark Forrest]

Tie bar update.

Now clearly this won't work on the layout as there is no isolation gap between the rails, but still a worthwhile exercise I think.  If nothing else I've proved to myself that I can solder three bits of brass to the blades without the other bits coming soldered!

 

Now, if the brass was cut shorter and the tubes were in two, longer, sections with some of the fibreglass rod to join the two halves, we might be getting somewhere...

 

(I'm aware that what I'm ending up with is not a million miles away from the ones that C&L sell, although I've not had much luck installing them when I've tried before)

[Southwich]

Looks great that Mark - very effective! Could you keep that and have the blades wired to the same switch as the frog? E.g. the polarity of the blades as a whole switches when the point throws?

 

Not sure if this would work but it was something I’d thought may be an option when looking at the ambis tie bars.

 

Kind regards,

 

Will

Edited January 5, 2021 by Southwich

[37114]

Very interesting thread Mark, good luck resolving the tie bar issues.

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, Mark Forrest said:

Tie bar update.

Now clearly this won't work on the layout as there is no isolation gap between the rails, but still a worthwhile exercise I think.  If nothing else I've proved to myself that I can solder three bits of brass to the blades without the other bits coming soldered!

 

Now, if the brass was cut shorter and the tubes were in two, longer, sections with some of the fibreglass rod to join the two halves, we might be getting somewhere...

 

(I'm aware that what I'm ending up with is not a million miles away from the ones that C&L sell, although I've not had much luck installing them when I've tried before)

 

Make a good one, or two, and resin cast them?

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

5 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Make a good one, or two, and resin cast them?

 

Mike.

Interesting.  Yes, that could be an option; think I'd still solder small L shaped bits of wire to the blades, but a cast (or maybe even 3D printed) bar between them could work.

[Mark Forrest]

8 hours ago, Southwich said:

Looks great that Mark - very effective! Could you keep that and have the blades wired to the same switch as the frog? E.g. the polarity of the blades as a whole switches when the point throws?

 

Not sure if this would work but it was something I’d thought may be an option when looking at the ambis tie bars.

 

Kind regards,

 

Will

Cheers Will.  Think I might be getting somewhere with this even if it's just a marginal improvement in my soldering skills!

 

Yes, I suppose switching blade polarity with the common crossing could be an option.  I know in 00 there is considered to be a risk of it causing short circuits, but that might be less of an issue with the tolerances we work with in P4 and EM.  I think I'll persevere with the conventional approach, but if I can't get that working to my liking I might come back to that idea.

[Indomitable026]

If that centre tube was insulating with and interence  fit?

[Mark Forrest]

1 hour ago, Indomitable026 said:

If that centre tube was insulating with and interence  fit?

Yes, that'd do it nicely.   Smallest plastic tube I've found is 2.4mm OD though, so a little on the large side (the tube used on my test piece is an 18 gauge hypodermic needle, so something like 1.2mm OD).

I know that Eileen's sell 1.2mm heat shrink that shrinks to 0.6mm which might be an option, although not sure how strong it would be.

 

Edit to add a thought:  If I used some thinner wire I could wrap that in the heat shrink before fitting the tube though

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Small PTFE tube here;

 

http://k-mac-plastics.com/ptfe-tube.htm#Molded

 

By my theory, (thinking out loud again!), I doubt that the tube is glueable sic, but as the strength and integrity of the switch blades isn't relying on the tiebar then an interference fit should be OK, and it will give a bit of movement to allow for expansion.

 

Mike.

[Mark Forrest]

So, how to get a nice, strong solder joint for the actuator wires that won't break when I'm soldering the tie bars in place?  A conversation with @Geoff Cook got me looking at silver soldering these joints.

With Christmas money from the in laws burning a hole in my pocket, I've invested it in the necessary equipment.

 

I've never used silver solder before so looking forward to giving it a try.

[Mark Forrest]

So far, so good.  Didn't burn my fingers or set anything on fire.

 

Decided I'd try with the wire soldered underneath the rail, possibly a little less solder needed next time?

After a bit of clean up:

 

I'm impressed by how strong the joint is, I've pulled on the wire with enough force to bend the rail and the wire hasn't moved at all.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Wow, it's nice to be rich!

Same thing in our Chino Supoermercado is 5 euros with exactly the same flame pattern, which to a Yorkshireman is a bargain of great delight!

 

Mike.

[MrWolf]

Silver solder is wonderful stuff, I use it to repair stainless and copper components on motorcycles that have cracked with vibration. If you can break the joint, you didn't solder it right! 

[Mark Forrest]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Wow, it's nice to be rich!

Same thing in our Chino Supoermercado is 5 euros with exactly the same flame pattern, which to a Yorkshireman is a bargain of great delight!

 

Mike.

I’m certainly not rich, but am a self confessed tool snob and besides with the pubs all closed I’ve got to spend my money somewhere!  

I dId see a few on Amazon that were half the price of the Proxxon (and get reasonable reviews), but decided a while ago that cheap tools are a false economy.

[DLT]

Interesting thread.  I may have to build a 3-way/interlaced turnout myself.