Hornby Tinplate 0-4-0 Limited Editions

[GoingUnderground]

I was surprised to see that as part of their centenary celebrations Hornby are producing 4 limited edition reproductions of the original 0-4-0 tender loco. In line with Hornby practice 100 years ago, the 4 models share are identical, with only the paintwork and company names being different. The company names are all pre-grouping. They are very expensive at over £500 each, but with only 100 of each, I'm sure they'll sell out. I won't be buying one as I have a very similar clockwork loco in LMS livery from the mid-1920s which was my father's, I also have the coaches and track, and, miraculously all survived me playing with them when I was a child. Sadly the box didn't survive, and was thrown away by my parents back in the 1950s.

[eldomtom2]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original "Caledonian" loco black?

[Robin Brasher]

It was blue, added to the range in 1921 and no longer made after the middle of 1923. Please see pages 112 and 117 of the Hornby Gauge 0 System by Chris and Julie Graebe.

[eldomtom2]

Ah. A certain 2002 book has lead me astray once again.

 

On a different note, do we have confirmation on whether these are 2-rail or 3-rail?

[HonestTom]

I did come across speculation as to whether they originally produced this engine in LBSC livery as well, as there were wagons for that company. The conclusion was "almost certainly not," but it would be an interesting variant.

 

I have to say, this was the absolute last thing I thought they'd produce. But then, the entire Hornby range this year has a feeling of, "Ha ha, okay, but seriously." Hush-Hush, the APT, Rocket, steampunk, a die-cast Duchess and this.

[railroadbill]

1 hour ago, eldomtom2 said:

Ah. A certain 2002 book has lead me astray once again.

 

On a different note, do we have confirmation on whether these are 2-rail or 3-rail?

Shouldn't they be clockwork? 

[Mark Carne]

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

I did come across speculation as to whether they originally produced this engine in LBSC livery as well, as there were wagons for that company. The conclusion was "almost certainly not," but it would be an interesting variant.

 

I have to say, this was the absolute last thing I thought they'd produce. But then, the entire Hornby range this year has a feeling of, "Ha ha, okay, but seriously." Hush-Hush, the APT, Rocket, steampunk, a die-cast Duchess and this.

LBSCR locos were made, but the really boring news is they were black. A boxed LBSCR passenger set is known, and it has a black loco and tender. A rather lucky friend found an individual box for a loco with an LBSCR label, but empty, unfortunately.

 

Cheers, Mark

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Ah. A certain 2002 book has lead me astray once again.

 

On a different note, do we have confirmation on whether these are 2-rail or 3-rail?

3 rail is mentioned in their YouTube and you can see the skate in images

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/2710-lnwr-no-1-centenary-year-limited-edition-1920.html

 

[GoingUnderground]

2 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

Ah. A certain 2002 book has lead me astray once again.

 

On a different note, do we have confirmation on whether these are 2-rail or 3-rail?

Looking at the pictures on the Hornby website of the 4 models, there is clearly a centre rail skate, not too surprising when you remember that the original Hornby O gauge tinplate was 3 rail, and I think, but please correct me if I'm wrong, that much O gauge coarse scale is 3 rail. But it is possible that they could have gone with clockwork, i.e. 2 rail. My LMS 0-4-0 tender loco, which is also 2710, is clockwork.

 

If it is intended to run with the original Hornby O gauge tinplate locos from the 1920s and 1930s, then it will probably be 20 volt AC. But Hornby also used 6V AC as well as the potentially lethal 120V AC from the mains. But I can't see 120V AC getting past today's 'Elf & Safty Polis, and I think that 20V was more common than 6V.

 

The choice of 120V AC for the original electric loco, the Metropolitan Railway MetroVic, was interesting because it copied what Maerklin was doing at the time. I was in a model railway museum in Crans Montana in Switzerland several years ago, and saw a 120V mains controller, which looked very similar to the illustrations that I'd seen elsewhere of the Hornby controller, complete with the electric bulb to act as a safety measure id there was a short (shades of DCC?). But on closer inspection, I saw that it was made by Maerklin.

 

Looking on the Hornby website, it's already showing the CR model as sold out. I don't think that the other 3 models will be available for much longer.

Edited January 8, 2020 by GoingUnderground

[Mark Carne]

It's being made by ETS, so more than likely it will be 20 volt dc, ETS have produced quite a range of loco commissions for the UK O gauge 3 rail market in the last 10 to 15 years. I'm quite surprised at the quantity, and how quick they appear to be selling, 400 units is a big number today for the modern O gauge 3 rail tinplate market, the Terrier ETS produced for WJVintage/Raylo went to about 350 units, and the ETS for Ace Trains LSWR M7 was only 200.

 

And running toy trains from the mains via a rheostat with a light bulb in the circuit was an industry standard 100 years ago, all the German makers used this system, and Hornby just copied them. The idea was as mains voltage varied enormously, it could be operated on any system, 110 to 240, ac or dc, as long as you used a 60 watt bulb of the correct voltage for your supply. The only other alternative, also an industry standard until the late 1920s, was 4 volt run from accumulators. 20 volt ac was introduced by Märklin in 1926, and then everyone copied that, Hornby some what slower than most, from 1932 onwards, and not really embracing it until 1934/35.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

[truffy]

1 hour ago, Mark Carne said:

A rather lucky friend found an individual box for a loco with an LBSCR label, but empty, unfortunately.

 

So, not that lucky then!

[GoingUnderground]

5 minutes ago, Mark Carne said:

It's being made by ETS, so more than likely it will be 20 volt dc, ETS have produced quite a range of loco commissions for the UK O gauge 3 rail market in the last 10 to 15 years. I'm quite surprised at the quantity, and how quick they appear to be selling, 400 units is a big number today for the modern O gauge 3 rail tinplate market, the Terrier ETS produced for WJVintage/Raylo went to about 350 units, and the ETS for Ace Trains LSWR M7 was only 200.

 

And running toy trains from the mains via a rheostat with a light bulb in the circuit was an industry standard 100 years ago, all the German makers used this system, and Hornby just copied them. The idea was as mains voltage varied enormously, it could be operated on any system, 110 to 240, ac or dc, as long as you used a 60 watt bulb of the correct voltage for your supply. The only other alternative, also an industry standard until the late 1920s, was 4 volt run from accumulators. 20 volt ac was introduced by Märklin in 1926, and then everyone copied that, Hornby some what slower than most, from 1932 onwards, and not really embracing it until 1934/35.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I thought that 100 units in each livery was a very modest total, but I'm not in to modern electric O gauge tinplate.

[eldomtom2]

Very few people are over here. See Darstaed entering the far larger finescale market.

[GoingUnderground]

On 08/01/2020 at 19:06, eldomtom2 said:

Very few people are over here. See Darstaed entering the far larger finescale market.

Well the Hornby website shows the CR, and MR versions as sold out, not too surprising as they do look good. The GN and LNWR versions are still available to pre-order though.

[eldomtom2]

There's only 100 of each - how many is a single store going to have?

[meatloaf]

14 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

There's only 100 of each - how many is a single store going to have?

 

My local store told me today that every stockist is only being allocated a single set of 4.

[Nearholmer]

Which is a really weird way to sell something with such specialist appeal, IMO.

 

I've been trying (like Hornby, I guess) to work out the size of the potential market, just for entertainment purposes, and my gut feel is that Hornby have got that roughly right, thinking about the membership of various old-style 0 gauge groups, allowing for closet tinplaters, adding in a few for the people that someone termed "R number completists", and a few for speculators and whim-purchasers.

 

But it seems to me like a product that would go best over the internet and by mail order from a central point, rather than via shops, where they might be as incomprehensible to the staff as to 99.9999% of the customers .......... try asking to test run it on the track in most model shops unless it has a 2/3 rail switch (which the staff won't know about). 

 

It feels to me as if Hornby stockists might find themselves stuck with odd ones and twos, which would shift quicker if sold from a central point.

 

We shall see!

[Mark Carne]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Which is a really weird way to sell something with such specialist appeal, IMO.

 

I've been trying (like Hornby, I guess) to work out the size of the potential market, just for entertainment purposes, and my gut feel is that Hornby have got that roughly right, thinking about the membership of various old-style 0 gauge groups, allowing for closet tinplaters, adding in a few for the people that someone termed "R number completists", and a few for speculators and whim-purchasers.

 

But it seems to me like a product that would go best over the internet and by mail order from a central point, rather than via shops, where they might be as incomprehensible to the staff as to 99.9999% of the customers .......... try asking to test run it on the track in most model shops unless it has a 2/3 rail switch (which the staff won't know about). 

 

It feels to me as if Hornby stockists might find themselves stuck with odd ones and twos, which would shift quicker if sold from a central point.

 

We shall see!

 I've done exactly the same, pondering the size of potential market, for such a product. 400 still seems a large number to me, given the kind of production run numbers of Ace Trains, WJVintage, etc. Ok, you can add potential buyers who are, as you say, "R number completists" and the like, and those who want to buy something special to mark the anniversary, but that cannot be a huge number, because I can see most of them being scared off by the price. Then I cannot see many of the people we know in the O gauge tinplate/coarse scale world wanting one either, as most of those that do buy "Modern compatibles" are firmly in the "Grown up Dublo" club, and will also be scared off by the price.

 

Time will tell, but whatever happens, it's certainly interesting!

 

Cheers, Mark

[brianusa]

Its amazing that there has been the enthusiasm that there is.  OK, so its Hornby's hundredth which must count for something but to spend such money on a basic toy train requires dedication to the brand. Over the years, I have bought two similar genuine Hornby locos for the price of one of these which means that it would be hard to to convince me to get one of these.  But that will make more available from the limited production for others!

     Brian.

[Nearholmer]

Is it the lack of  a light-bulb on the front that deters you Brian?

[GoingUnderground]

Hornby are now showing all 4 as sold out. If I ran Hornby O gauge tinplate electric from the 1930s, I might have been tempted to get one despite the price.

[No Decorum]

I’m as baffled by the interest in these primitive and expensive models as people around me are baffled by my interest in model railways. 

[Nearholmer]

You need to do that stuff they do in 1970s Kung-Fu movies, sitting cross-legged under a tree for a month or two, contemplating the meaning of things ....... the moment of realisation will eventually come, and you will arise as the Bruce Lee of tin toy trains.

[GoingUnderground]

13 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I’m as baffled by the interest in these primitive and expensive models as people around me are baffled by my interest in model railways. 

In my case it's quite simple. Hornby O gauge tinplate clockwork from the 1920s was the first trainset that I played with, and was my father's when he was a boy. I only knew about the clockwork 0-4-0 locos, and only later came across the wonderful 1920s and 1930s electric models and rolling stock and desperately wished that I had that. So it evokes nostalgia for me and my earliest memories of playing with toy trains.

[goldfish]

On 12/01/2020 at 22:46, GoingUnderground said:

Hornby are now showing all 4 as sold out. If I ran Hornby O gauge tinplate electric from the 1930s, I might have been tempted to get one despite the price.

 

Hornby are currently showing all 4 available for pre-order. Still tempted?