Hornby Tinplate 0-4-0 Limited Editions

[Phil Parker]

I managed to bag a few snapshots of this model at the London Toy Fair.

 

[PaulRhB]

Surprising it’s a satin finish and it looks a bit less ‘finished’ on the joins that the original vintage ones! The metal looks thicker and less crisp at the bent edges. 

I dunno it just needed to look a bit sharper at that price to me. I was initially tempted by the pics but the price put me off when there are really nice originals for the same sort of money and good ones for a lot less. 
Glad it has sold well though as it was a bold move and very appropriate  

[Nearholmer]

I've been round in circles like a clockwork train with this, being very tempted by its quirkiness and the 'commemoration factor', but decided that it is too far out of keeping with the rest of my 0 gauge 'tinplate', which tends in the somewhat less toy-like direction. Like others, I think at a somewhat lower price I would have jumped in with both feet.

[goldfish]

It would nice if Hornby offered the cylinders, pistons and connecting rods as spare parts. Fitting an ETS drive unit to a Hornby clockwork body is easy, but the cylinders etc. are often in a terrible condition, if they are present at all.

[sncf231e]

The pictures above show a screw in a handrail stanchion. I wonder what that is for? I do not remember having seen that in an original Hornby.

Regards

Fred

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, goldfish said:

 Fitting an ETS drive unit to a Hornby clockwork body is easy, 

Any links to how that’s done?  

[goldfish]

3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Any links to how that’s done?

 

I don't know of any links, but it is pretty straight forward on the No. 40, 50 and 51 locomotives. The rear mounting on the ETS drive unit just needs opening out, and the front mounting needs an adaptor plate to bridge the gap to the Hornby front mounting. It doesn't need to be anything fancy, for this one I just used a couple of strips of 64 thou brass strip. Things get complicated when you convert to 2-rail because you have to insulate the piston/cylinders, but for 3-rail all you have to do is bore out the piston connecting link to 4.5mm to fit the ETS bushes. If you want to move any more than a couple of wagons you need to pack the body with some serious weight.

 

[Nearholmer]

I’ve got ETS chassis waiting to go into No.2 tank and a No.2 tender engine shells, and the process/work is exactly the same, and a pal has ‘done’ a No.40 already. It is pretty simple.

 

One thing to add is that simple cosmetic frames, cut and folded from tin or brass and painted matt black, fitted ahead and behind of the ETS chassis, transform the look of all of these locos, making them much more plausible.

[goldfish]

I am not sure where this fits in the plausibility stakes, but you don't have to confine yourself to an 0-4-0. Not my conversion, but it appears to just fit.

 

[Mark Carne]

9 hours ago, sncf231e said:

The pictures above show a screw in a handrail stanchion. I wonder what that is for? I do not remember having seen that in an original Hornby.

Regards

Fred

Fred, here's a photo of an original 1920 loco, also with a grubscrew securing the handrail, it was a feature of the 1920 locos only, that had Meccano rod thickness handrails, dropped when the handrail diameter was reduced the next year.

 

Mark

[PatB]

Nice idea, but for that kind of money I think I'd rather have a real one. 

[Steamport Southport]

9 hours ago, PatB said:

Nice idea, but for that kind of money I think I'd rather have a real one. 

 

But the "real" one won't have a certificate and a box....

 

 

 

PS. I know that smiley says "senile" I'm using it for "playing with toys"

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

An original box in half-decent condition is almost certainly worth more than most of the original locos.

[Mark Carne]

On 30/01/2020 at 16:08, Nearholmer said:

An original box in half-decent condition is almost certainly worth more than most of the original locos.

No. I sold a 1920 set less than 10 years back, for £275, if I remember correctly, and in the past 10 years, the price of Hornby O gauge has only gone in one direction, and it ain't up!

 

Cheers, Mark

Edited January 31, 2020 by Mark Carne

[brianusa]

1 hour ago, Mark Carne said:

No. I sold a 1920 set less than 10 years back, for £275, if I remember correctly, and in the past 10 years, the price of Hornby O gauge has only gone in one direction, and it ain't up!

 

Cheers, Mark

Ain't that the truth!

       Brian.

[PatB]

I'd guess the decline in values is a result of tempus fugiting on those with a personal connection/nostalgia. Realistically, Hornby tinplate 0 was really an object of desire and entreaties to Santa pre-WW2. That makes even the youngest who ached to posess a set ~85-90 years old and past their prime collecting years. Without that personal connection, most Hornby tinplate was made in such volumes that only a minority of items have any real rarity value. As a result, the market for the mundane pieces in less than perfect condition has shrunk to a relatively small number of enthusiasts who enjoy running British tinplate 0 for its own (considerable) charm. From what I can see Dublo and Triang seem to have begun a similar decline. Mind you, I've yet to notice a corresponding increase in values of 70s-80s 00 stock though, so maybe it doesn't quite work consistently. I never cease to be amazed at the prices seen on Ebay for early N gauge rubbish though. 

[Nearholmer]

My point was a relative, not absolute, pricing one ...... and I still think it might be right.

 

Prices are strange, and the only rule I can discern is that whatever I decide I need seems to be on a rising trend, and whatever I decide to sell is on a falling one.

[TonyMay]

On 01/02/2020 at 10:57, PatB said:

I'd guess the decline in values is a result of tempus fugiting on those with a personal connection/nostalgia. Realistically, Hornby tinplate 0 was really an object of desire and entreaties to Santa pre-WW2. That makes even the youngest who ached to possess a set ~85-90 years old and past their prime collecting years. Without that personal connection, most Hornby tinplate was made in such volumes that only a minority of items have any real rarity value. As a result, the market for the mundane pieces in less than perfect condition has shrunk to a relatively small number of enthusiasts who enjoy running British tinplate 0 for its own (considerable) charm. From what I can see Dublo and Triang seem to have begun a similar decline. Mind you, I've yet to notice a corresponding increase in values of 70s-80s 00 stock though, so maybe it doesn't quite work consistently. I never cease to be amazed at the prices seen on Ebay for early N gauge rubbish though. 

 

That deals with reduction in demand, but don't forget increase in supply; these old gents will either sell their collections for extra cash in their old age, or they'll pass away and their middle-aged sons and daughters inherit dad's toy train collection.

[LNWR18901910]

On 29/01/2020 at 17:27, goldfish said:

I am not sure where this fits in the plausibility stakes, but you don't have to confine yourself to an 0-4-0. Not my conversion, but it appears to just fit.

 

It looks fantastic! It reminds me of the NER J27 0-6-0 which happens to have a sole-surviving member.

[JSpencer]

On 01/02/2020 at 03:57, PatB said:

I'd guess the decline in values is a result of tempus fugiting on those with a personal connection/nostalgia. Realistically, Hornby tinplate 0 was really an object of desire and entreaties to Santa pre-WW2. That makes even the youngest who ached to posess a set ~85-90 years old and past their prime collecting years. Without that personal connection, most Hornby tinplate was made in such volumes that only a minority of items have any real rarity value. As a result, the market for the mundane pieces in less than perfect condition has shrunk to a relatively small number of enthusiasts who enjoy running British tinplate 0 for its own (considerable) charm. From what I can see Dublo and Triang seem to have begun a similar decline. Mind you, I've yet to notice a corresponding increase in values of 70s-80s 00 stock though, so maybe it doesn't quite work consistently. I never cease to be amazed at the prices seen on Ebay for early N gauge rubbish though. 

 

As someone of the 70s/80s, the stuff that was made then is either still made now (though somewhat enhanced) or replaced by entirely better models. The companies behind the 70s/80s stuff are still around or the tooling was taken over by someone else and is still produced or replaced by better models. The 90s models were mostly the same as the 80s models with additional classes and some minor upgrades.

The late 70s saw manufacturers moving away from toys and into models which are mostly compatible with todays models (in DC mode at least) on code 100 rails. 

 

The other main thing I brought and still own a lot of the stuff at the time (and have spares for them). I still have them and don't feel the need to buy more of them even if they are cheap (likewise their cheapness makes it pointless for me to sell them off too - might as well keep my fond memories). Like most, I'd rather add to stud the newer more recent super detail models that have evolved from them.

I still even have the 80s Hornby buildings and platforms that are still in the catalogue today.

 

[GoingUnderground]

I ached to possess a set when I saw pictures in the 1950s of what was available from Hornby O gauge in the 20s and 30s, and I'm definitely not in my 80s or 90s. And I'd love to have a 20 volt London Transport Metro-Vic and some Metropolitan carriages, but they're still in silly money territory. It was the way that O gauge became unavailable in the late 1950s that pushed me to OO gauge, but with Triang not Dublo, probably because it was cheaper for my parents. But I still have all my O gauge tinplate stuff, including what was my Dad's, some of which is almost as old as the Hornby name itself.

 

I expect the secondhand prices to keep falling across the hobby as post WW2 babyboomers like me start dying off, and our kids and grandkids start putting our beloved models up for sale on Ebay etc. because they're not interested in the hobby. Glut of models up for sale + falling demand = falling prices, a position that I can't see reversing, at least not in my lifetime. There will be some exceptions to this rule, but even they will, eventually, succumb. So, like others, I'll buy from time to time to fill in gaps, and hope I live long enough to enjoy my purchases. 

[adb968008]

On 02/02/2020 at 07:15, TonyMay said:

That deals with reduction in demand, but don't forget increase in supply; these old gents will either sell their collections for extra cash in their old age, or they'll pass away and their middle-aged sons and daughters inherit dad's toy train collection.

Many of whom will look at it as rusty old tat and throw it in the bin.

 

 

On 01/02/2020 at 02:57, PatB said:

Mind you, I've yet to notice a corresponding increase in values of 70s-80s 00 stock though, so maybe it doesn't quite work consistently. 

Perhaps because until the late 1980’s what you had is what you got.

Since the late 1980’s just about everything of interest has been retooled and redetailed in some cases many times over.

 

I think revolution of the hobby, the relatively short time span of vast improvements has seen a decade or two skipped (figuratively & literally) by enthusiasts, as the price differential between 1970’s and 1990’s was so small, and at the time the hobby shrunk considerably.. the difference between a Hornby 08/20/31/37/47 at c£10 in 1980 and a Lima one at £20 in 1990 made it simple.

I suspect there will be a cult nostalgia in Lima of the 1990’s in the future, as so many people have so many of them, then and now, though I doubt the price will rise to considerably.. just bubble under the prices of s/h Heljan, Bachmann models save the odd exception.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by adb968008

[Nearholmer]

“Glut of models up for sale + falling demand = falling prices, ”

Seems very variable across the piece.

 

Hornby Dublo, except for genuinely rare items, certainly is in exactly the position you describe, because it seems to have survived in bulk very well, especially the c1960 stuff that was over-produced in the first place, but only nostalgics want most of it ..... it’s just that little bit too crude to be  layout fodder for most enthusiasts.

 

The better Hornby 0 stuff, and Bassett Lowke, seems to hold up better (although a rather mad 1990s bubble has burst), presumably because there is simply less of it around, so the tribe of nostalgics are all fishing in a the same small pond.

[PatB]

10 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

I ached to possess a set when I saw pictures in the 1950s of what was available from Hornby O gauge in the 20s and 30s, and I'm definitely not in my 80s or 90s. And I'd love to have a 20 volt London Transport Metro-Vic and some Metropolitan carriages, but they're still in silly money territory. It was the way that O gauge became unavailable in the late 1950s that pushed me to OO gauge, but with Triang not Dublo, probably because it was cheaper for my parents. But I still have all my O gauge tinplate stuff, including what was my Dad's, some of which is almost as old as the Hornby name itself.

 

I expect the secondhand prices to keep falling across the hobby as post WW2 babyboomers like me start dying off, and our kids and grandkids start putting our beloved models up for sale on Ebay etc. because they're not interested in the hobby. Glut of models up for sale + falling demand = falling prices, a position that I can't see reversing, at least not in my lifetime. There will be some exceptions to this rule, but even they will, eventually, succumb. So, like others, I'll buy from time to time to fill in gaps, and hope I live long enough to enjoy my purchases. 

Well, yes, there are exceptions. Back c1980 I'd have given my eye-teeth for one of those lovely post-war sets with a BR black 0-4-0 and a pair of 4-wheel blood and custard coaches, but you and I do not a general sample, or a large collector market, make. In general, post-WW2, Hornby's 0 gauge offerings were the poor relations and considered rather childish and toylike, with Dublo being the main object of desire. Or, at least, that's the impression I get. 

[GoingUnderground]

"Rusty old tat"? Possibly if it's tinplate, but most of my tinplate is in reasonable nick, bar the stuff thst I trashed as a kid. But I've yet to see plastic rust, but the early acetate does warp beautifully, and is only fit for the bin. But I agree with your sentiments. That's how my wife and daughter already feel about my models. To them they're just "toys" or a "waste of space". But there will be enough stuff put up for sale on Ebay by the more financially savvy folks to keep driving down prices. As well as modellers liquidating their collection, to avoid it being binned when they go to play with the great train set in the sky.