R3819 Duchess Of Atholl

[Robert Scott]

Actually I paid by paypal so I am fully protected. I had a look at their website just now and they are showing a one available.

[Robert Scott]

20 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

That's unacceptable, I can only hope you had the sensibility to pay by credit card so you stand a chance of recovering your money. I'd blame myself and the shop before Hornby if I was you.

Why should I blame myself if there is a shortfall of the item?

[robmcg]

7 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Which would equate to the much more likely cock up rather than conspiracy scenario. A lot of very angry words on here directed at Hornby when none of the facts are yet known. One can only blame the heat .........

 

Reminds me of a certain recent Hornby model of Bulleid BR Light Pacific 34001 'Exeter' , where a serious shortfall in shipped numbers led to quite high prices and some disappointment, Hornby did a second run about a year later.

 

But this is a bit different being a short-run commemorative model. I do hope all pre-orders can be honoured eventually.

 

[AY Mod]

36 minutes ago, Robert Scott said:

Why should I blame myself if there is a shortfall of the item?

 

You may not be to blame for that part, if a shortfall is proven in that specific instance but I can't believe you were daft enough to shell out £250ish up front. I don't believe any other retailers were asking for that.

 

I've got some magic beans if you want some?

[Robert Scott]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

You may not be to blame for that part, if a shortfall is proven in that specific instance but I can't believe you were daft enough to shell out £250ish up front. I don't believe any other retailers were asking for that.

 

I've got some magic beans if you want some?

Lol yes please. But seriously, I decided to order from one of the smaller retailers in the belief (wrongly or rightly) that I would get the model even though I was less happy to pay in full in advance.  But I am sure that they were protecting their interests as I have heard of people placing orders and then cancelling them later.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

You may not be to blame for that part, if a shortfall is proven in that specific instance but I can't believe you were daft enough to shell out £250ish up front. I don't believe any other retailers were asking for that.

 

I've got some magic beans if you want some?

A growing number of outlets are working on the prepay model, ive got quite a lot in Accurascale, to the point I’ve self-imposed a credit limit on my pre-delivery spend there until something on prepaid list is delivered... 

 

There are a growing base of retailers requiring either a deposit or larger payment In advance of a models arrival  (including Rails & Locomotion, Kernow ) as well as others requesting larger payments, it is a changing world i’m afraid...

 

Some retailers will guarentee price, often preferential with benefits (savings, points, extra Under table discounts etc), if whole or part payment is made in advance. it may not be always be overt, but some retailers are definitely doing it.

 

I have advanced beans for a GT3, Rails Terrier, D, 18000, NER etc, which aren't always guaranteed to be available if you don't, a pre-order commitment is required.

I certainly was asked / incentivised to prepay for the D600, 102xx requested months ahead of arrival in this country, which also paid off in the speed they sold out.

 

GNR no1 requested upfront payments (and saved those who did a price increase), that too was an interesting birth.

we've seen that on other models through the years.

 

Some smaller outlets wont sell unlessyou do, i’m awaiting since April for my prepaid Narrow Planet order for instance, its progressing, but they wont make it without up front payment.

Admittedly ive only heard of one manufactuer/retail taking upfront and not delivering... weve had reams of history from him, but for “known and trusted” retailers this should be ok.

I don't think it unreasonable for some of Hornbys more limited releases this year that payment in advance should secure yours, though it would appear from suggestions above, that Maybe it doesn't.

 

I will add, I can see how “over selling” may occur with a retailer, and that some retailers it is possible to by-pass there “sold out” window and still purchase, which could inadvertently create that oversold situation for them.
 

I don't yet know if I secured my R3819, I didn't pre-pay, but i’m hoping my prior spend buys loyalty, otherwise i’m out of luck.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by adb968008

[Colin_McLeod]

8 hours ago, Robert Scott said:

Lol yes please. But seriously, I decided to order from one of the smaller retailers in the belief (wrongly or rightly) that I would get the model even though I was less happy to pay in full in advance.  But I am sure that they were protecting their interests as I have heard of people placing orders and then cancelling them later.

Looks like you have a clear cut case for getting a refund from that model shop. Unfortunately that does not get you a Duchess but you should get your money back.

[Colin_McLeod]

On 07/08/2020 at 18:08, Hilux5972 said:

Who said the amount has been reduced? Could be the simple fact of Hornby seeing how quickly it sold on preorder, deciding that they want to get as much as they can, and then deciding that they can get much more from direct sales than from people buying from shops at 10% off. Makes perfect commercial sense for them, but does not make them popular at all. 

 

Is this speculation or do you have any evidence that this is the case?

[Robin R]

Having read these posts relating to  the Hornby 100 Duchess of Athol R3819, I consider it reasonable for Hornby to explain how this situation can happen this is especially so within a market leading organisation such as Hornby.

Regarding the now situation there are, as I see things, the following options:

Do nothing and initially assess and later verify the potential level and consequences of the ensuing customer dissatisfaction

Or

Alter the specification sheet regarding the quantity of the limited edition (I understand Hornby reserves the right to alter specifications as and when required) and produce another batch (Second Edition) – having predicted the impact on dissatisfaction and customer satisfaction as justification.

Or

Utilising process risk assessment methods to predict the impact on dissatisfaction and customer satisfaction, consider producing another limited or unlimited alternative product e.g. with TTS sound fitted and in the earlier powder blue Hornby Dublo boxes of the pre war and immediate post war period and certificates numbered in Roman Numerals. A Hornby Dublo train pack with TTS sound and 4 Hornby Dublo coaches with internal lighting would be good? The ”0” gauge 2710 models are selling (not) at £525 and now on eBay at £430!!

It is unlikely that a business like Hornby will intentionally take actions that many would consider unacceptable – e.g. diverting product guaranteed to stockists to their own direct sales outlet to achieve a small (in terms of their own business) increase in revenue, the level of customer perception that they would indeed take such action could be such that to overall benefits to the business would be diminished and potentially negative.

Finally there are suggestions that there has been a short shipment of 52 units. With a limited batch of 500 saleable units the costs incurred to recover the design, development, tooling and product promotion may not be recovered by the sale of the remaining 448 units suggested to have been made. The beancounters (accountants) within Hornby’s stakeholders may have insisted that all products break even at the very least and anyway is it reasonable to expect the lucky 448 reciepients of these locos to be subsidised by future price increases to recover the shortfall especially because it is certain sales onto second and third owners etc will certainly demand a higher premium than anticipated. Even with a substantial increase in number of units in the limited edition the now apparent demand will ensure a value going forward greater than many expected also the 52 units short shipped could then be added as first edition units (available only through Hornby?) thus a second edition with TTS sound and at a lower price may encourage the ownership of a second unit for actual use on a layout.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Has any owner yet weighed the loco alone and prepared to report?

Supplementary question, where is the balance point located relative to the coupled wheelbase?

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

Some of the more observant members will have noticed that some of my posts were "hidden" by myself, Andy Y was informed of this and my reasons for hiding them. I had spoken to Hornby and a full investigation was carried out by them.

 

On the day of the Centenary Products Launch, I had taken the day off in order to watch the announcements. My order was in within less than half an hour. Sat back and waited for them to be delivered. Then came an email from our Hornby rep, with what we had been allocated due  to the limited numbers. I had been allocated one Duches of Atholl. Other items I had ordered had also been reduced.  I telephoned our Hornby rep and asked for one more, also explaining that I had sent my pre-order in before the allocation email. He then checked and amended my pre-order in conjunction with our allocation. I have checked all my emails and cannot find any written confirmation that we were to receive another D of A. I have since then checked all my communication with Hornby including old copies of my Hornby Back Orders. That number has never changed. I failed to pick this up when checking my back orders. My error. Not Hornby. I believed I had ordered two and only received one. I only ever had one on order and that order was satisfied by Hornby.

 

I would like to take this opportunity to publicly apologise to Hornby and any confusion that has occured.

[Robert Scott]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

A growing number of outlets are working on the prepay model, ive got quite a lot in Accurascale, to the point I’ve self-imposed a credit limit on my pre-delivery spend there until something on prepaid list is delivered... 

 

There are a growing base of retailers requiring either a deposit or larger payment In advance of a models arrival  (including Rails & Locomotion, Kernow ) as well as others requesting larger payments, it is a changing world i’m afraid...

 

Some retailers will guarentee price, often preferential with benefits (savings, points, extra Under table discounts etc), if whole or part payment is made in advance. it may not be always be overt, but some retailers are definitely doing it.

 

I have advanced beans for a GT3, Rails Terrier, D, 18000, NER etc, which aren't always guaranteed to be available if you don't, a pre-order commitment is required.

I certainly was asked / incentivised to prepay for the D600, 102xx requested months ahead of arrival in this country, which also paid off in the speed they sold out.

 

GNR no1 requested upfront payments (and saved those who did a price increase), that too was an interesting birth.

we've seen that on other models through the years.

 

Some smaller outlets wont sell unlessyou do, i’m awaiting since April for my prepaid Narrow Planet order for instance, its progressing, but they wont make it without up front payment.

Admittedly ive only heard of one manufactuer/retail taking upfront and not delivering... weve had reams of history from him, but for “known and trusted” retailers this should be ok.

I don't think it unreasonable for some of Hornbys more limited releases this year that payment in advance should secure yours, though it would appear from suggestions above, that Maybe it doesn't.

 

I will add, I can see how “over selling” may occur with a retailer, and that some retailers it is possible to by-pass there “sold out” window and still purchase, which could inadvertently create that oversold situation for them.
 

I don't yet know if I secured my R3819, I didn't pre-pay, but i’m hoping my prior spend buys loyalty, otherwise i’m out of luck.

 

 

 

 

 

If the case of the Hornby Rocket is anything to go by, spending loyalty means nothing. I had spent several thousand pounds in the previous six months with a major supplier, I still did not get one because they "oversold".

[Legend]

8 minutes ago, Robert Scott said:

If the case of the Hornby Rocket is anything to go by, spending loyalty means nothing. I had spent several thousand pounds in the previous six months with a major supplier, I still did not get one because they "oversold".

I think every order is treated the same , when you think about it it would be difficult to organise it any other way and you may deter new customers . 
 

That  said it’s not rocket (no pun intended) science to sort out allocations .  If you make 500 then probably you allocate 480 Including an allocation to your direct channel leaving some in reserve for faults /returns . If no returns you can sell remainder off on your direct channel or through dealer.   The basis seems to have been turnover , so everyone should know what they are getting and have it confirmed . Mistakes will always happen as Widnes has just stated , but what we have here are several people , who ordered within hours of announcement , with no prior indication something is wrong , being disappointed . It shouldn’t take long to establish what went wrong . Hopefully the reason you haven’t heard anything yet is that they are trying to figure out  a way of resolving issue . 

[MonsalDan]

13 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

That's unacceptable, I can only hope you had the sensibility to pay by credit card so you stand a chance of recovering your money. I'd blame myself and the shop before Hornby if I was you.

So the guy might have been out of pocket by over £200 because he was trying to help a small business and your reaction is to blame him.  Come on Andy, you're better than that.

[Robert Scott]

2 minutes ago, MonsalDan said:

So the guy might have been out of pocket by over £200 because he was trying to help a small business and your reaction is to blame him.  Come on Andy, you're better than that.

Thankyou, I was rather put out by  that reply.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, MonsalDan said:

Come on Andy, you're better than that.

 

In an era of Nigerian princes and text messages from the HMRC promising refunds I would have thought money up front would ring alarm bells, no-one else was asking for that and the retailer wouldn't be paying Hornby until he'd got the stock so where is the logic in placing yourself in a position of potential loss?

[MonsalDan]

9 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

In an era of Nigerian princes and text messages from the HMRC promising refunds I would have thought money up front would ring alarm bells, no-one else was asking for that and the retailer wouldn't be paying Hornby until he'd got the stock so where is the logic in placing yourself in a position of potential loss?

Well as far as I'm aware I don't think any self proclaimed Nigerian Princes are in the market for Hornby trains haha.  Fortunately, he does have protection through Paypal.  It was quite a rude reply at best Andy and I think an apology is in order.

A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss next time when Hornby quite clearly haven't fulfilled their side of the deal, regardless of what has gone on behind the scenes. Isn't not blaming the customer the golden rule of retail?

Edited August 13, 2020 by MonsalDan

[AY Mod]

29 minutes ago, MonsalDan said:

1. A bit of empathy wouldn't go amiss next time when Hornby quite clearly haven't fulfilled their side of the deal,  - do you have any evidence that they haven't in this specific case?

2. regardless of what has gone on behind the scenes. - you can't disregard what the cause of an issue may be.

3. Isn't not blaming the customer the golden rule of retail? - He's not my customer and Hornby haven't blamed him either. The customer needs to be asking bigger questions of the retailer.

 

NB - Nigerian princes will sell you anything you want; money no object.

[cctransuk]

Just now, AY Mod said:

 

NB - Nigerian princes will sell you anything you want; money no object.

 

True - but they're very polite about it; which is more than can be said for your sarcastic comment.

 

You have taken me to task in the past for that kind of cynical comment - pot / kettle?

 

John Isherwood.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

You have taken me to task in the past for that kind of cynical comment - pot / kettle?

 

I have indeed but I remain bemused that someone takes to RMweb to criticise the manufacturer when the real issue is an unnamed retailer being a bit fly and taking advantage of the customer.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

I have indeed but I remain bemused that someone takes to RMweb to criticise the manufacturer when the real issue is an unnamed retailer being a bit fly and taking advantage of the customer.

 

Andy,

 

Like it or not - such criticism will persist until such time as Hornby issue a plausible explanation as to why retailers have had short deliveries. The way Hornby have handled this regretable manner is a disaster, and each day that goes by without complete disclosure does them huge damage.

 

Notifying retailers at the end of the week, when no communication was possible, and leaving the trade to deal with understandably angry customers, is cowardly and underhand.

 

I understand that you would like to maintain cordial relations with Hornby, but you are coming over as an apologist for that which is indefensible.

 

John Isherwood.

[AY Mod]

Just now, cctransuk said:

such criticism will persist until such time as Hornby issue a plausible explanation as to why retailers have had short deliveries. The way Hornby have handled this regretable manner is a disaster, and each day that goes by without complete disclosure does them huge damage.

 

It may not even be possible for them to do so with any accuracy if you consider the post above - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150677-r3819-duchess-of-atholl/&do=findComment&comment=4081389 - my understanding is that may not be an isolated instance. In that context who would you apportion blame to?

 

[Lexington]

14 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

I have indeed but I remain bemused that someone takes to RMweb to criticise the manufacturer when the real issue is an unnamed retailer being a bit fly and taking advantage of the customer.

Basically you are saying a Sheffield based retailer is lying? 

[AY Mod]

Just now, Lexington said:

Basically you are saying a Sheffield based retailer is lying? 

 

Not at all (so do not presume to accuse me of that), we are very obviously discussing a smaller retailer. I have been assured that all smaller retailers will receive their initial order quantities.

[MonsalDan]

21 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

NB - Nigerian princes will sell you anything you want; money no object.

1. He hasn't received the model which he pre ordered and presumably neither have the retailer.

2. I'm not disregarding the cause, I don't know the cause and Hornby haven't issued a statement on it.  I just think trying to push blame onto the retailer and the customer in order to help Hornby save face is a bit off and I think an apology is due from yourself for the rude response.

3.  My mistake, I admit it's hard to tell the difference sometimes between yourself and the manufacturers when you are rushing to defend them like that.

Edited August 13, 2020 by MonsalDan