Tight Curves in a Cramped Attic

[BritishGypsum4]

So I have been browsing on this forum for a little while now and I love seeing how everyone takes a challenge and works through it to get to a successful conclusion. There are many different layouts that I have enjoyed viewing and I have found it rather inspiring to say the least.

So here's to you all for taking the challenge and building something. Here's to all of you who get so much enjoyment from the hobby and are happy to share pictures, thoughts and ideas to everyone. It has certainly helped me to take the plunge and to start to model.

 

So the title of this thread will give you all some idea of what I am working with. I have, at this moment, a small space of 10' 6" by 10' to play with. Well, to be honest I have a lot of boxes and packaging up in the attic which is causing me a headache of where else to store it so it isn't in my way but we'll ignore that slight snag for the moment....

I have enjoyed reading the micro layout threads and trying to think of some ideas of what I can do. I have also read both publications from Gauge 0 Guild with regards layouts and small spaces.

 

And so to the attic....

 

I did think of a roundy roundy layout and accept that the curves will only allow me to run short wheelbase stock. Not really a problem. I enjoy tank engines and I also like light railways. I have also seen the track plan for Selsey in the Peco publication that came out last year and I think I will aim for something similar. The main difference being that I want to have a narrow gauge feeder line as well. So that will use the opposite platform face.

 

I like oddities so I have three Branchlines kits with regards Railbuses. These in particular are the ones that Colonel Stephens used on several of his railways. I have also got the narrow gauge version too. So we'll see how this all goes in the end.

 

Currently though, and probably to the horror of some, I aim to just make some of the many kits that are currently cluttering up the boards that are up in the attic. I want to make space and store them in larger boxes (carefully!) and then begin to sort a track plan out and go from there.

 

Finally (and to the horror of most again!) I am using the boards that were in the attic when my wife and I bought the house. It used to have a four track 00 layout that had been made for the children. They are well screwed together so I do not think there will be any issue with them. Any point work will be an bit awkward so I might think of various methods with regards to changing points.... There are shelves underneath the boards which certainly restrict any working underneath!

 

I will have to rescan a drawing I did and upload it for you all to have a look at what I did come up with for the space. Also there are three track gauges 32mm (std gauge), 16.5mm (narrow gauge) and 9mm (miniature). I have a little diesel for the 9mm track and an Avalon kit of a bogie coach. I have a number of pieces for the 16.5mm gauge track including two kits of Talyllyn as well as a Mercian models kit of Prince. So plenty to keep me busy

 

[Adrian Stevenson]

Sounds like you have got lots to keep you busy!

 

I look forwards to seeing some photos.

 

Cheers, Ade.

[F-UnitMad]

29 minutes ago, BritishGypsum4 said:

 

 

I did think of a roundy roundy layout and accept that the curves will only allow me to run short wheelbase stock.

My O Scale layout has 3ft radius curves, but then it's American outline; everything on trucks (bogies in English!!) and Kadee buckeye couplers, so the locos & stock manage just fine.

 

BUT - Pertinent to your situation is that I've tried some of my UK O models on it, and can report that Minerva & Dapol 8750 Panniers can take those curves, AND pull & push Heljan 'modern' BR 45t long wheelbase wagons round them too, using the standard buffers & 3-link couplers (don't ask about that loco/stock combination!!) so if you can use the Peco O Setrack points and curves you should have few, if any, problems with shorter locos and stock. The only thing is that at about 4ft radius, on a 10ft-long board you're not going to have much straight track.

[GRASinBothell]

Sounds like a good reason to go for "coarse scale" (aka "standard scale").

I run an Ace GW Castle, Bulleid Light Pacific and LMS Jubilee round O-54 (2'3" radius) curves, which would give you a reasonable amount of straight track in your 10'.

You could even go the whole hog, and add that extra rail in the middle...

Gordon

[BritishGypsum4]

1 hour ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Sounds like you have got lots to keep you busy!

 

I look forwards to seeing some photos.

 

Cheers, Ade.

Thank you Ade. When I  work out how to "shrink" my photos to upload more than one I'll be sure to post some up. I'll be doing a bit tomorrow in the attic so hope to take some then too.

 

49 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

My O Scale layout has 3ft radius curves, but then it's American outline; everything on trucks (bogies in English!!) and Kadee buckeye couplers, so the locos & stock manage just fine.

 

BUT - Pertinent to your situation is that I've tried some of my UK O models on it, and can report that Minerva & Dapol 8750 Panniers can take those curves, AND pull & push Heljan 'modern' BR 45t long wheelbase wagons round them too, using the standard buffers & 3-link couplers (don't ask about that loco/stock combination!!) so if you can use the Peco O Setrack points and curves you should have few, if any, problems with shorter locos and stock. The only thing is that at about 4ft radius, on a 10ft-long board you're not going to have much straight track.

 

Very true indeed and hence why my initial idea of one side being a fiddle yard to terminus and the other being the same but for narrow gauge appealed to me at first. It meant I could have some straight sections in and I'd accept that as I can use it to test my kit building out but it also means having some scenery to also take photos of.

I'll certainly keep having a think about it and see what else I might come up with. 

[BritishGypsum4]

Here are just some photos of the kits I have to build both narrow gauge and standard gauge.

 

First one is the Branchlines kit for the Ford Railbus. One will be powered and one unpowered.

 

MR Brake van.

 

I think this looks a really bonny looking carriage and fits in with the whole idea of a light railway that I want to do.

 

 

It'll keep me quiet for a bit. I have others which I have done or still to finish off

 

 

Edited January 12, 2020 by BritishGypsum4
Needed to compress pictures before uploading

[BritishGypsum4]

Well it was great to get to Kendal Model Exhibition today. A chance to get out of the house and stretch my (rather sore) leg(s). 
Been having trouble with an old knee injury and sciatica playing havoc with my hip.
Will have to sort out the photos later tonight and post them. 
All were inspiring in their own way, showing that it doesn't matter what scale someone uses, there could be a good idea with regards scenery, trackwork, general design, right down to the trains that are running.
Batterdale kept my two interested in trying to find lots of different cameo pieces. Kept me entertained too! So much I didn't see half of what ran past as we hunted unicorns, flying pigs and foxes on the tick sheet. Also my youngest loved the scene on Kirtley Bridge of the washing line and the chickens. I've been told that whatever I build has to have them!

I hope they don't mind an ostrich either....  

 

I didn't get chance to buy much as they started to get bored with looking at trade stands so it gives me a good excuse to head to York and spend there....

[johnhutnick]

Please view the following regarding what can fit in a small space with Ace 3-rail.  It is also worth viewing other videos by "TheNorthscot" as sources of ideas.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7BbR-9ZGiQ

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilxITOa0im4&list=PLQ0KFh2EzSa7Z_a4qZzyk9hgtl0eF_KEz&index=35&t=0s

[spikeyfaz]

Hi there.

 

I see that you've got a couple of Branchlines Ford Railbus kits to build. Did you buy these recently as I didn't know if Branchlines was still trading? Also, just wondering what your thoughts are on complexity/accuracy of the kits.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Nearholmer]

As a dedicated coarse-0 person, I support what others have said about its space-economy, but ...... 

 

With considerable investment in kits for fine-scale (although you could fit G0G coarse wheels to most of em without too much problem - Slaters and others supply), I can see why fine it will probably be, and I think you need have no fear about using c3ft radius with small locos and 4W stock.

 

A lot of tosh has been written about ‘fine’ 0 being impossible below 6ft radius ..... its perfectly possible if you are happy with smaller prototypes.

 

I am certain that my layout could be built and run successfully in nominal ‘fine’ 0, using exactly the same radii as it has (mostly 38”), even the excruciating 27” radius curve if suitable couplers were used ....... I’ve tried vehicles with fine wheels on it.

 

The thing to remember is that G0G ‘fine’ is really not very fine at all, to the degree where some people actually close the gauge by 0.5mm to get better running at points, while using the standard wheel sets. Now, P7 is different.

 

From the inside particularly, c3ft radius looks OK too (excuse the lack of scenery, this is on a lifting flap). The coaches are scale length 48ft vehicles.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Nearholmer

[BritishGypsum4]

3 hours ago, spikeyfaz said:

Hi there.

 

I see that you've got a couple of Branchlines Ford Railbus kits to build. Did you buy these recently as I didn't know if Branchlines was still trading? Also, just wondering what your thoughts are on complexity/accuracy of the kits.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Hello Mike. I bought the Branchlines kits about two years ago and need to make a start at some point. They do look fairly accurate. I saw a pair of these on a layout at the Guildex show at Telford one year and being a sucker for oddities I bought the pair. I also got the Narrow Gauge version off eBay last year which I made a start with on Sunday. I took only a couple of shots but I need to do more before I post photos. 

When I get a bit further on I'll run the rule over them to see what they are like and compare them to the drawings I have in the Colonel Stephens book on the Railbuses. To me they look right for what I want to achieve and will fit nicely.
As to complexity I must say that I do find the instructions nice and easy to follow. The Std gauge ones look slightly less fiddly than the narrow gauge one to build but I will know more as I progress.

 

[Nearholmer]

I built the NG one c30 years ago, and the only really challenging bit was the curving of the roof profile. some of the rest, around the bonnet-front was fiddly and I probably couldn't tackle it effectively now (eyes!). To my slight surprise it also ran very well ...... its a long time ago, but IIRC the non-driven axle rocks to give effective 3-point support, so the wheels track nicely.

[F-UnitMad]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I am certain that my layout could be built and run successfully in nominal ‘fine’ 0, using exactly the same radii as it has (mostly 38”), even the excruciating 27” radius curve if suitable couplers were used ....... I’ve tried vehicles with fine wheels on it.

Not too sure about 27" radius for 0-6-0 locos. Until recently my US O layout had one curve that tightened down to about 26" radius - my British locos wouldn't touch it, not even bogie diesels; I never tried coupled-up UK rolling stock on it either. Even for my US stuff it presented difficulties, so a few months ago I took it up & relaid that corner to 36" radius to match the rest of the layout.

But for short wheelbase UK stock, 36" radius should be ok. Jim Read is another RMweb O-Scaler with experience in this area. I think at least one of his layouts is on YouTube.

[Nearholmer]

11 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Not too sure about 27" radius for 0-6-0 locos

 

Not r-t-r fine-wheeled ones, no, because it requires tweaks/compromises like lots of side-play or omitting the flanges from the centre wheel-set. And, yes, you need to use rigid-link couplings or very wide buffers if you go down that tight.

 

Northroader is good at this sort of thing.

 

But, I'm not trying to persuade anyone down to 27" in fine-scale, merely saying that it can be done, and, more to the point, that c36" is perfectly do-able. Anything below about 36" with even modest bogie coaches looks seriously toy-train-set anyway, because of centre-throw, which is why I only have 27" on the lifting flap, which is deemed "off-scene".

[GRASinBothell]

All my Ace six-coupled locomotives have flanged centre wheels and go around O-54 (54" diameter/27" radius) curves, although on the Black 5, I found it necessary to take advantage of the feature that allows the cylinders to be moved out a fraction for use on tight curves to clear the bogie wheels.

Gordon

[Nearholmer]

Because they use the other usual compromise that I suggested: lots of side-play.

 

"The trouble" with finescale r-t-r 0-6-0 is that they have centre wheel flanges and very limited side-play.For really tight curves an 0-6-0 can have one or the other of those features, but not both.

[goldfish]

12 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

With considerable investment in kits for fine-scale (although you could fit G0G coarse wheels to most of em without too much problem - Slaters and others supply), I can see why fine it will probably be, and I think you need have no fear about using c3ft radius with small locos and 4W stock.

 

A lot of tosh has been written about ‘fine’ 0 being impossible below 6ft radius ..... its perfectly possible if you are happy with smaller prototypes.

 

Most of the tosh is written by people who have never tried it. There is no problem with running fine scale wheels on very tight radii, I do it quite often. Out of the box Dapol 9' wagons can be pulled around 18" radius reverse curves, and with a change of couplings can even be pushed through them. Albeit slowly, and with care. I would not advocate it though because it puts a lot of strain on the plastic. The problem with fine scale wheels arises when you try to run them through course scale points, they just derail.

 

[Nearholmer]

49 minutes ago, goldfish said:

The problem with fine scale wheels arises when you try to run them through course scale points, they just derail.

 

The converse also being true.

 

Fine wheels on a coarse turnout will (unless you are very lucky) hit the crossing nose and jump off; coarse wheels jam solid against the checkrails on a fine turnout, or ride up over the checkrails and de-rail.

 

Horses for courses when it comes to points!

[F-UnitMad]

18 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Anything below about 36" with even modest bogie coaches looks seriously toy-train-set anyway, because of centre-throw

I guess 'centre-throw' is the overhang of the middle of a vehicle on the curve?, like this...

This is one of my 72ft Centerbeam Flats, & a much shorter Coil Car, viewed from overhead on a 36" radius curve.

But from eye level, the view isn't so bad, from inside the curve.

Edited January 29, 2020 by F-UnitMad
Spelling.

[Nearholmer]

Crikey, that is one long vehicle!

 

A good one for clearing line-side vegetation, signals etc from the track bed.

 

Yes, that’s what centre-throw is, and end-throw is the equivalent where the end of a vehicle sticks out over the curve on the outside, which is usually most pronounced on locos with a bogie leading, and no side-control springs.

[GRASinBothell]

72' is only a little longer than the GWR 70' Dreadnought coaches.

Those could have done almost as good a job of lineside clearing!

Gordon

[PatB]

Given the space and chosen prototype, it would be worth contemplating handbuilding the track. That would allow a roundy layout to be roughly circular, maximising radii, as you wouldn't be restricted by set point geometry or the limitations of 0 gauge flexi or set track. For a light railway this could be done very cheaply using code 100 FB rail salvaged from scrap Streamline, glued to card sleepers or soldered direct to small panel pins driven straight into the baseboard a la Freezer, Denny, Hancock, Read et al. It's fairly easy to create something that works and, for a smallish layout, the scope of the work isn't that daunting. 

 

On another point, I don't wish to be a party pooper, but if you're having knee/hip problems you may want to think about future access to the attic because, as I'm just starting to discover, things don't get any easier as time passes. I'm a relative striping compared to others here but, even so, there are a few heavy things I put on high shelves in the workshop a decade ago and I'm now genuinely unsure whether I can get them down again. I'm rueing a few decisions that were made by a younger, fitter man. 

[Hal Nail]

Unfortunately have to echo that. My knees arent brilliant as a result of accumulated sporting wear and aside from the English weather, the one thing that really gives me gyp is the loft ladder!

 

Incidentally I've never read anyone saying you can't run finescale under 6 foot. They have perhaps suggested that's around the radius where any tighter is noticeable to the eye, which isnt quite the same thing.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Hal Nail

[GWR57xx]

I did some experimenting when I was considering building a U shaped O gauge layout, results here: Newbridge

 

As long as you stick with small tank engines and small wagons & coaches (4 / 6 wheelers) you should be OK, just avoid bogie stock or big engines.

ATB

Edited January 30, 2020 by GWR57xx
Thinking about it, 6 wheelers will clearly struggle!

[HSB]

I have never understood the desire by many people to run express trains round train-set curves in any scale (usually without any transition curves which makes it look even worse). Short locos and stock will always look far more convincing on sharp curves.