Class 303 EMU query

[ThaneofFife]

Have seen a number of videos recently of these units in and around Glasgow in the 80s as 3 car units and was wondering if there are any design differences between both outer driving cars?

 

It would seem to be a good opportunity for a manufacturer to product a 3 car set if it only requires 2 x toolings.  One for a driving car trailers and one for the central powered car with the overhead equipment.

 

Am I missing any key pieces of equipment on the outer cars or are the bodies essentially identical?

 

When new did they have 4 cars (like the 304/309 etc) or were they always a 3 car unit?

[Dagworth]

Being as I've got a DC Kits 303 under construction I would expect a manufacturer to announce a 303 as mine gets to the paint shops!

 

Andi

[Legend]

Always three car units . As far as I know the driving cars were identical . Note that there were later 311 units as well which looked similar.

[pH]

18 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

Have seen a number of videos recently of these units in and around Glasgow in the 80s as 3 car units and was wondering if there are any design differences between both outer driving cars?

 

It would seem to be a good opportunity for a manufacturer to product a 3 car set if it only requires 2 x toolings.  One for a driving car trailers and one for the central powered car with the overhead equipment.

 

Am I missing any key pieces of equipment on the outer cars or are the bodies essentially identical?

 

When new did they have 4 cars (like the 304/309 etc) or were they always a 3 car unit?

 

Only ever 3-car units, sometimes in 6-car sets. I don't ever remember seeing a 9-car set.

 

From the Summer 1962 Combine, the centre car was a 'motor open brake second'. The end cars were both 'driving trailer open seconds'. However, while both the outer units had the same dimensions and the same number of seats, there were two weights - 34 and 38 tons. I don't know what caused the difference.

[Pete the Elaner]

11 minutes ago, pH said:

 

Only ever 3-car units, sometimes in 6-car sets. I don't ever remember seeing a 9-car set.

 

 

I think anything longer than 6 coaches would be too long for the low level stations.

[hexagon789]

52 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

Have seen a number of videos recently of these units in and around Glasgow in the 80s as 3 car units and was wondering if there are any design differences between both outer driving cars?

 

It would seem to be a good opportunity for a manufacturer to product a 3 car set if it only requires 2 x toolings.  One for a driving car trailers and one for the central powered car with the overhead equipment.

 

Am I missing any key pieces of equipment on the outer cars or are the bodies essentially identical?

 

When new did they have 4 cars (like the 304/309 etc) or were they always a 3 car unit?

 

Always 3-car. The formations were all BDTS-MBS-DTS.

 

26 minutes ago, pH said:

From the Summer 1962 Combine, the centre car was a 'motor open brake second'. The end cars were both 'driving trailer open seconds'. However, while both the outer units had the same dimensions and the same number of seats, there were two weights - 34 and 38 tons. I don't know what caused the difference.

 

Batteries, one driving trailer was a 'Battery' Driving Trailer Second.

 

According to the diagram book, both seated 63, the DTS weighed 34.5 tonnes; BDTS 38t.

[TheSignalEngineer]

30 minutes ago, pH said:

The end cars were both 'driving trailer open seconds'. However, while both the outer units had the same dimensions and the same number of seats, there were two weights - 34 and 38 tons. I don't know what caused the difference

From the stock drawings book the bodies look the same.  One had more below floor equipment than the other in the way of battery boxes IIRC, thus the designations of DTS and BDTS.

[flubrush]

1 hour ago, ThaneofFife said:

When new did they have 4 cars (like the 304/309 etc) or were they always a 3 car unit?

 

They were three car sets from new and mostly ran in the 3 + 3 configuration as a six car set.   They were in their own shade of blue based on Caledonian blue and had wrap round windscreens.

 

Jim.

[pH]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I think anything longer than 6 coaches would be too long for the low level stations.

 

The original south-side electrification was all above-ground lines, as were several of the extensions of the electrified network. In steam days, some of those lines had trains of engine plus eight suburban coaches, so a 9-car set would have fitted.

 

This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_303 says that there were occasional uses of 9-car sets. (Yes, I do know it's Wikipedia .)

[Titan]

12 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

From the stock drawings book the bodies look the same.  One had more below floor equipment than the other in the way of battery boxes IIRC, thus the designations of DTS and BDTS.

 

I suspect the compressor would also be mounted on the BDTS. 

[caradoc]

From memory of when I was responsible in a small way, as a Controller, for the Glasgow area electric services between 1986 and privatisation, there were no regularly diagrammed 9-car Class 303 (or 311) workings, any such trains would have been in the event of failure, or ECS workings. However a regular feature for big events at Hampden Park was additional trains on the Cathcart Circle, but I do not recall these being 9-cars either, although I stand to be corrected. 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

[darrel]

They were only ever 3 car units but often ran as 6 cars occasionally they would run as 9 cars on rare occasions. Apparently when they were being tested in Manchester in 1961 after transformer mods they ran some as 4 cars with two motor coaches. I have yet to see photos of this.

The bodies of the driving trailers were identical however the chassis was different as one driving trailer had batteries and compressor fitted to it.

There were major differences between refurbished and unrefurbished units the sliding doors were a different profile and the hopper windows for example and the modifications to the front end. 

Class 311s were almost identical apart from an additional grill next to the guards van. And the jumper cable mounting were slightly different.

But I would love a ready to run model of the 303s

 

[darrel]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

From memory of when I was responsible in a small way, as a Controller, for the Glasgow area electric services between 1986 and privatisation, there were no regularly diagrammed 9-car Class 303 (or 311) workings, any such trains would have been in the event of failure, or ECS workings. However a regular feature for big events at Hampden Park was additional trains on the Cathcart Circle, but I do not recall these being 9-cars either, although I stand to be corrected. 

 

When there was the tall ships event at greenock there were 9 cars running on a Express service to and from Glasgow central

[Strathyre]

The 9 car stop boards were still in situ at Point Glasgow a few years ago (about 10), they may still be there 

[thedman]

Mount Florida couldn’t take a 9-car for football traffic at Hamden.

[37Oban]

No. 035 was built with Peter's external sliding doors.  I'm not sure, but I think these were replaced by standard sliding doors, possibly when the unit was refurbished.

 

Roja

[Ian Smeeton]

The only 9-car set I ever saw was when one 3 car set failed at Gourock, and was recovered by coupling 2 x 3 (operational) car sets to get it back to Shields Rd as part of a scheduled service.

 

Not sure what happeneed at Central, perhaps a loco was used to shift the defective set.

 

I was a bit late taking up photography, so all of mine are in B/G after refurb

 

 

Wallneuk Junction

 

 

The remains of Georgetown station on a very cold January morning

 

I think that the rest of my 303/311 photos are buried in the Scottish 80s photo thread somewhere.

 

I have some Worsley Works 2mmFS etches in the gloat/yet to be started box. Allen can usually rescale his etches if asked. otherwise there is a 3D print available and the DC kits version mentioned above.

 

Regards

 

Ian

[caradoc]

2 minutes ago, Ian Smeeton said:

The only 9-car set I ever saw was when one 3 car set failed at Gourock, and was recovered by coupling 2 x 3 (operational) car sets to get it back to Shields Rd as part of a scheduled service.

 

Not sure what happeneed at Central, perhaps a loco was used to shift the defective set.

 

I was a bit late taking up photography, so all of mine are in B/G after refurb

 

 

Wallneuk Junction

 

 

The remains of Georgetown station on a very cold January morning

 

I think that the rest of my 303/311 photos are buried in the Scottish 80s photo thread somewhere.

 

I have some Worsley Works 2mmFS etches in the gloat/yet to be started box. Allen can usually rescale his etches if asked. otherwise there is a 3D print available and the DC kits version mentioned above.

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

Regarding the 9-car with a failure, the whole lot might well have been run off to Shields (assuming the failure could be driven from), or else another set would have been docked on top to haul it away. Either way, the Central box would have wanted it out of the platform ASAP !

Lovely photos BTW.

 

[luckymucklebackit]

23 hours ago, 37Oban said:

No. 035 was built with Peter's external sliding doors.  I'm not sure, but I think these were replaced by standard sliding doors, possibly when the unit was refurbished.

 

Roja

 

035 was the guinea pig unit for control systems and for a couple of door systems, It was classified 303/2 and the Dean doorgear was removed in 1971.  Unit No.091 was originally earmarked  to be fitted with thyristor equipment eventually fitted to 035.  The type of sliding doors with which unit No.035 was uniquely fitted (hence its Type AM3/2 classification) was originally to be applied to 50 or 60 units, but the plan was abandoned because of manufacturing difficulties. These air-operated doors were flush with the coach body when closed, and when opened moved outward and slid along the coach exterior; in service the equipment suffered a failure rate 150 per cent worse than that of the standard door gear on the other units.

 

The unit remained essentially non-standard and was put into storage in 1981.  The MBS was subsequently scrapped but the TS and BTS were later used in reformed 303028.

 

Edit - regarding 9 car units, there was a regular ECS from AIrdrie to Bridgeton late evening that ran as a 9 car set.

 

Jim

Edited January 15, 2020 by luckymucklebackit

[37Oban]

1 hour ago, luckymucklebackit said:

035 was the guinea pig unit for control systems and for a couple of door systems, It was classified 303/2 and the Dean doorgear was removed in 1971.  Unit No.091 was originally earmarked  to be fitted with thyristor equipment eventually fitted to 035.  The type of sliding doors with which unit No.035 was uniquely fitted (hence its Type AM3/2 classification) was originally to be applied to 50 or 60 units, but the plan was abandoned because of manufacturing difficulties. These air-operated doors were flush with the coach body when closed, and when opened moved outward and slid along the coach exterior; in service the equipment suffered a failure rate 150 per cent worse than that of the standard door gear on the other units.

 

The unit remained essentially non-standard and was put into storage in 1981.  The MBS was subsequently scrapped but the TS and BTS were later used in reformed 303028.

 

Hi,

 

thanks for the info! I only knew that 035 had the doors and not the reason they were removed.

 

Roja

[ThaneofFife]

lots of info and it does indicate only 2 x toolings could be all thats required for a nice RTR 3 car set from somebody with slightly different underbody equipment but essentially not difference in the basic body tooling.  

 

I wonder if a manufacturer can also build in realistic "bounce" just like the real thing......

 

it is possible that a manufacturer might not see the design of a 00 gauge 303 quite as simplistic as me but then I am biased.  Seems a good idea to me as the model shouldnt retail for more than £300 if a new 411 3rd rail unit 4 car set is now over £400.  

[pH]

48 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

I wonder if a manufacturer can also build in realistic "bounce" just like the real thing......

 

You mean "nausea-inducing wallowing"?

[ThaneofFife]

3 hours ago, pH said:

 

You mean "nausea-inducing wallowing"?

 

 

They actually made you feel sick? 

 

[pH]

52 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

They actually made you feel sick? 

 

In the early days of the southside electrification, I would use a Cathcart Circle train to visit my gran, who lived near Pollokshaws East. The exit from Central and over the bridge was genuinely alarming - wild swings from side to side, and sudden lurches as the suspension came up against stops. Then, once the electrification had been extended to Gourock, the up-and-down motion through Langbank on a train not stopping there was more than a 'bounce'.

 

OK, "nausea-inducing wallowing" was an exaggeration, but IMO their ride was not great, though many other people seemed to disagree.