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BR green locos in the late 1970s

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Out of interest, is there a list somewhere of the opposite situation? ie locos in blue still carrying a D number?

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53 minutes ago, JohnR said:

Out of interest, is there a list somewhere of the opposite situation? ie locos in blue still carrying a D number?

AFAIK the instruction to paint over the ‘D’ was issued as soon as steam finished in the August of ‘68, and this was done at the sheds.  As a result, there was a variation in compliance, and locos outstationed at signing on points might well not be dealt with until they visited the parent shed, and then only if someone remembered. 
 

In the case of Hymeks, which had cast aluminium ‘D’ prefixes,some were painted over and left in situ and some were removed; certified photo evidence is vital here!  Hymeks became very unkempt during their final years in service and it was sometimes necessary to identify them by number shaped patches where the numbers had been.

Edited by The Johnster

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2 hours ago, JohnR said:

Out of interest, is there a list somewhere of the opposite situation? ie locos in blue still carrying a D number?

 I cant do that but a number of locos did wear blue with D prefix numbers, several Class 33s for one. It is quite a rare combination. Many of the Deltics wore blue with a D number.

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3 hours ago, JohnR said:

Out of interest, is there a list somewhere of the opposite situation? ie locos in blue still carrying a D number?

 

Quite a number of Brush 4's were so adorned.

 

Mike.

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4 hours ago, slilley said:

 I cant do that but a number of locos did wear blue with D prefix numbers, several Class 33s for one. It is quite a rare combination. Many of the Deltics wore blue with a D number.

 

Repaints into blue with D prefix occurred over a 2-year period (roughly autumn 66 to autumn 68) and a lot of locomotives went through works in that time so I wouldn't describe the combination as particularly rare.

Amongst the last locos still carrying Ds on blue were Peak Class 45s still awaiting overhauls in 1974 - D109 & D126 come to mind. Two-tone green D1103 still had Ds into 1973 and ttg D7659 still had these plus small yellow warning panels at Willesden in October 73 (although it had been dual-braked!)

The last loco I saw still carrying its pre-TOPS number (Westerns excepted) was 53 'Royal Tank Regiment' at BNS on 19/4/75.

 

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4 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Quite a number of Brush 4's were so adorned.

 

Mike.

And IIRC some 31s and 37s, possibly also 26s and 27s though my notes from trips that far north at the time in question don't survive.  Many shunters were blue with a D-prefix and many electrics blue with an E-prefix which, in the case of all WCML types, was because they were never in any earlier livery (electric blue considered as "blue").  

 

WR Hydraulics were all left with the D prefix as repainted I believe though some Warships lost it (possibly at a later works visit or subsequent repaint) and some Hymeks and Westerns had the raised aluminium D over-painted or, in the case of Hymeks, removed altogether.

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20 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

WR Hydraulics were all left with the D prefix as repainted I believe though some Warships lost it (possibly at a later works visit or subsequent repaint) and some Hymeks and Westerns had the raised aluminium D over-painted or, in the case of Hymeks, removed altogether.

 

At least one western had the D removed, which one is lost in the dusty recesses of my brain!

 

Mike.

Edited by Enterprisingwestern
Updated information, thanks Rugd1022!

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9 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

One western had the D removed, which one is lost in the dusty recesses of my brain!

 

Mike.

 

Several had the Ds removed Mike, there is a list in one of Adrian Curtis' books somewhere.

 

As for the Warships, one example had its D vinyls removed and later added again, I forget which one but there's a note of it in the Martin Street & John Ennison Warship bible.

 

 

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18 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

And IIRC some 31s and 37s, possibly also 26s and 27s though my notes from trips that far north at the time in question don't survive.  Many shunters were blue with a D-prefix and many electrics blue with an E-prefix which, in the case of all WCML types, was because they were never in any earlier livery (electric blue considered as "blue").  

 

WR Hydraulics were all left with the D prefix as repainted I believe though some Warships lost it (possibly at a later works visit or subsequent repaint) and some Hymeks and Westerns had the raised aluminium D over-painted or, in the case of Hymeks, removed altogether.

All electric locos and units kept their pre1968 numbers until the TOPS renumbering, those with ‘E’ prefixes needing them to differentiate from diesel numbers, not needed for 2xxxx numbered locos, i.e. Southern Railway and Manchester-Sheffield-Wath.  

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I suppose for the record one should note that the pair of D6xx "Warships" which made it into blue bore D-prefix numbers for those brief months. 

Edited by Gwiwer
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2 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

 

Several had the Ds removed Mike, there is a list in one of Adrian Curtis' books somewhere.

 

As for the Warships, one example had its D vinyls removed and later added again, I forget which one but there's a note of it in the Martin Street & John Ennison Warship bible.

 

 

 

In my defence, it was after my time!

 

Mike.

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For blue-with-D-numbers (inc. without the D) it's really a case of trying to find a picture to be sure of the style used.

Some went into blue with old-style numerals e.g. D6xx Warships mentioned by Gwiwer

Some received new-style numerals with/without the D

Some used both, depending on loco!

Mention was made of the cl.76s - they had their E26xxx numbers in either old or new-style numerals and even when it came to TOPS renumbering, it was simply a case of removing the 'E26' and replacing it with a '7'. This wasn't a problem when the loco had new-style numbers as everything matched and possibly some were renumbered 76xxx in old-style numbers.

But i remember seeing (76057 maybe?) with  new '7' but the rest in old-style!

I think it was 06008 had a mix of number-types, but this was possibly a lot later.

 

A couple of my favourite sites for transition-era photos:

Robert Carroll's Flickr (all eras really): https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/collections

Brushveteran's Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/collections/72157627649183499/

And here on RMWeb, the Transition Liveries section - a lot of the info may be rather specific but good for general info too: 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/138-transition-diesel-liveries/

Edited by keefer
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On 22/01/2020 at 22:16, Neil Phillips said:

 

Repaints into blue with D prefix occurred over a 2-year period (roughly autumn 66 to autumn 68) and a lot of locomotives went through works in that time so I wouldn't describe the combination as particularly rare.

Amongst the last locos still carrying Ds on blue were Peak Class 45s still awaiting overhauls in 1974 - D109 & D126 come to mind. Two-tone green D1103 still had Ds into 1973 and ttg D7659 still had these plus small yellow warning panels at Willesden in October 73 (although it had been dual-braked!)

The last loco I saw still carrying its pre-TOPS number (Westerns excepted) was 53 'Royal Tank Regiment' at BNS on 19/4/75.

 

Maybe I could have phrased it slightly better, for the Class 33s, blue and a D number is not that common, thats what I was trying to point out.

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1 hour ago, slilley said:

Maybe I could have phrased it slightly better, for the Class 33s, blue and a D number is not that common, thats what I was trying to point out.

 

I don't wish to come across as a total pedant, but, the pull push 19 out of the 98 makes up a fair percentage, plus the rest of them could add up to going on for half of the class probably, I don't specifically remember seeing a non D BRCW 3, but quite a few with one.

 

Mike.

(I'll STFU and return to the naughty step if required!)

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2 hours ago, slilley said:

Maybe I could have phrased it slightly better, for the Class 33s, blue and a D number is not that common, thats what I was trying to point out.

Many had the D-prefix at first repaint and lost it at various times after.  In some cases not until the next paint cycle but in others it seems to have been peeled off.  FWIW one of the models on my shelf right now is a blue D6579 though its running mate is plain 6572.  I have no issue with either.  

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Beware all isnt always as it seems...

 

Take this image..(not mine flickr url)... its 1977, its green and its a 1950’s logo...

 

Green shunter

 

then click the link and read the comments... its still a remarkable story, in that not that it was originally removed from a D numbered 08 (D3052)  still roaming North London in 1973.. but that D3052 was in original BR black with wasp ends !

 

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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16 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I don't wish to come across as a total pedant, but, the pull push 19 out of the 98 makes up a fair percentage, plus the rest of them could add up to going on for half of the class probably, I don't specifically remember seeing a non D BRCW 3, but quite a few with one.

 

Mike.

(I'll STFU and return to the naughty step if required!)

Mike

 

It is a valid point you make. The 19 push-pull conversions entered service after conversion with D prefix numbers yes, but the Southern was slow to paint the class blue, and not that many had been painted when the D prefix was abolished post August 1968. Having spent some time finding pictures of D prefix blue locos for my forthcoming Class 33 book, I have to say it has been a struggle. I would suggest it is not as common as you may have thought. Talking to others about the class, they acknowledge that many got blue post 1968 and only had 65XX numbers rather than D65XX numbers.

 

Simon

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4 hours ago, slilley said:

Mike

 

It is a valid point you make. The 19 push-pull conversions entered service after conversion with D prefix numbers yes, but the Southern was slow to paint the class blue, and not that many had been painted when the D prefix was abolished post August 1968. Having spent some time finding pictures of D prefix blue locos for my forthcoming Class 33 book, I have to say it has been a struggle. I would suggest it is not as common as you may have thought. Talking to others about the class, they acknowledge that many got blue post 1968 and only had 65XX numbers rather than D65XX numbers.

 

Simon

 

Of course the anachronism with the Southern Region is the short gap, or maybe overlap, (not sure of the dates due to grey cell degradation!) , between the last main line loco in plain green with no yellow panel and loco's outshopped in standard blue. 

 

Mike.

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1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Of course the anachronism with the Southern Region is the short gap, or maybe overlap, (not sure of the dates due to grey cell degradation!) , between the last main line loco in plain green with no yellow panel and loco's outshopped in standard blue. 

 

Mike.

My forthcoming Class 33 book will have a pair of Cromptons on an oil tanker train near Didcot with one loco in blue the other in all over green with no yellow panel.

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1 hour ago, slilley said:

My forthcoming Class 33 book will have a pair of Cromptons on an oil tanker train near Didcot with one loco in blue the other in all over green with no yellow panel.

 

You'd already sold me the book, but that puts the pot lid on it!

 

Mike.

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13 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

You'd already sold me the book, but that puts the pot lid on it!

 

Mike.

I had better hope the photo makes the final cut then !!

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It does seem bizarre that the SR only had one mainline diesel type to deal with, got off to a good start by adding yellow warning panels to D6530 in 1962 as expected but still had some examples without any yellow into 1968! One of these was D6585 which I saw ex-works blue at Exeter on 2/1/69 as 6585 (without data panels - now that must have been a rare combination). D6583 was another one, still plain green in May 1968. The question is, did they go straight from plain green into blue full yellow? I think so - some certainly did, especially amongst the 33/1 push-pull conversions. 

The derbysulzers website has a section on Class 33, including some green livery observations and an incomplete listing of dates into blue. Some of these are estimated, but what is apparent is that during 1967 the SR prioritised the push-pull conversions over the rest, and this may have contributed to those long-lived plain green ones. Plus of course they had rather a lot of EMUs to process! 

Some of the Class 33/0s I can recall in blue with D prefix are D6503/55/58/69/79/89. Heljan modelled D6506 in this condition too, I'd assume this is correct. 

Other locomotives which I reckon went straight from plain green into blue full yellow were Class 20s D8030/2 and Class 22s D6333/34. Unlike other Works Swindon and Inverurie continued to use block serif numbers throughout 1967 - Class 22 overhauls at the former ceased at the end of that year so none were seen with the later-style numbering with D prefixes. A motive power shortage in 1970, and lack of diesel-electric replacements, resulted in overhauls restarting and 6308/19/26/30/38/48/52/56 being outshopped in final variant blue full yellow livery.

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On 17/01/2020 at 08:03, Neil Phillips said:

Oooh, that's splitting hairs Mike, but yes OK, I'll grant you that one! Good job they didn't send D1734, the way things turned out.....

I very nearly missed seeing D1733 in Bsyp, on my first tour around Crewe Works on 3/11/69 I found it bogieless on trestles. Somewhat bizarrely the loco which pioneered the new BR logo but ran without any for over 5 years emerged from this overhaul in standard blue but still without any logos! 1538 was likewise around the same time so maybe there were none on the shelf in the Paint shop when these two went through.

 

Neil

Ah, it doesn't count if its not stood on its own wheels......!

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By that rule, I can cross out 60007 and underline Miles Beevor. 

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