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BR green locos in the late 1970s


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Re. Neil Phillips and photo credits for using photos in a book, I am the guilty party as the author of the Class 24/25 book. I always take great care to credit photographers but sometimes there is no name on the back and more than once the publisher ( Ian Allan) would slip in a photo after I submitted the text and photos so the first time I would see the photo was when it was published. I once had a very irate letter from Chris Croft’s berating me for using one of his photos without credit, I sent him the photo which was blank on the back! I to have seen photos I took appearing for sale on eBay,

 

David

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On 25/05/2020 at 13:09, Neil Phillips said:

I know what you mean Russ. A certain book which took an 'in-depth' look at Classes 24 & 25 used two of my photos of Class 24s at Swindon Works in 1976 without credit. If my assumption regarding the source is correct they were not copyrighted but there was no excuse for the lack of credit. I was a tad miffed, had a 'bl**dy cheek' sort of mutter but left it at that. 



It does happen. I had one of my shots used on a postcard and sold in a shop. It appeared on the net and I asked where he'd had it from and was directed to a shop locally.
They were selling for charity so I couldn't really complain but i would have preferred the civility of being asked. 
I could have given them a hi res one so my work didn't look as amateurish for a start.

 

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2 hours ago, Norton961 said:

Re. Neil Phillips and photo credits for using photos in a book, I am the guilty party as the author of the Class 24/25 book. I always take great care to credit photographers but sometimes there is no name on the back and more than once the publisher ( Ian Allan) would slip in a photo after I submitted the text and photos so the first time I would see the photo was when it was published. I once had a very irate letter from Chris Croft’s berating me for using one of his photos without credit, I sent him the photo which was blank on the back! I to have seen photos I took appearing for sale on eBay,

 

David

I have had the same. When doing Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History, my wife and I went to Hersham to the Ian Allan Library which was a collection of filing cabinets in the corner of a warehouse. We rooted through all the Class 47 pictures and pulled outones we thought were worth using. Some of them had details on the back of what and where and who the photographer was, plenty of others didnt. 

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On 22/01/2020 at 22:16, Neil Phillips said:

 

Repaints into blue with D prefix occurred over a 2-year period (roughly autumn 66 to autumn 68) and a lot of locomotives went through works in that time so I wouldn't describe the combination as particularly rare.

Amongst the last locos still carrying Ds on blue were Peak Class 45s still awaiting overhauls in 1974 - D109 & D126 come to mind. Two-tone green D1103 still had Ds into 1973 and ttg D7659 still had these plus small yellow warning panels at Willesden in October 73 (although it had been dual-braked!)

The last loco I saw still carrying its pre-TOPS number (Westerns excepted) was 53 'Royal Tank Regiment' at BNS on 19/4/75.

 

 

I make no apologies here for thread drift, as I find the green TOPS debate over shadows the pre-TOPS numbered locos in 1974. 

 

However, on transcribing spotting notes for my website (url at the bottom of posts), I was sent observations from August 1974, and became somewhat surprised at the number of locos with their pre-TOPS identities (not including hydraulics). 

 

Peaks seem to be high on the list (although that might simply be because a lot of the observations were from the Midland main line). Still running pre-TOPS in August 74 were -

 

27, 30, 37, 39, 41, 45, 48, 49, 53, 54, 62, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 78, 83, 84, 95, 97, 100, 103, 114, 115, 121, 122, 128, 132

 

A few WCML electrics had also escaped the 5-figure numbers

E3006, E3011, E3012, E3153

 

Have only found two 47s so far. 

1592, 1715

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The Class 45 Peaks were late to the renumbering party due to the ETH-fitting programme, which determined whether a given loco became a Class 45/0 or 45/1. My 1975 Locoshed Book (dated October/November 1974) shows every loco class fully TOPS-numbered, except around 60 Class 45s, plus Falcon, the Hymeks and the Westerns. 

 

 

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On 19/01/2020 at 20:09, CliveM said:

 

106 was repainted BR Blue at Crewe until the 'phone rang and someone politely pointed out the error of their ways!  I have, rather sadly, seen a 'photo of said loco in BR blue, followed two days later by BR Green.  quite how they achieved that (wet paint etc) is anybodies guess.  Upon being repainted they forgot (?) to remove the works plate and if you look very, very closely at good hi-def pics you can see the blue surrounding the plate.  For the sake of completeness I've also seem a photo of 106 prior to the works plate being reattached and the area beneath was blue.

 

I also recall seeing the odd Class 47 in shabby BR Green on Trans Pennine jobs in 1976.  Quite common to see loco classses in the North West still in green.

IMG_0006_28Custom29.jpg

 

So it was purple, blue over green paint?

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3 hours ago, jonny777 said:

 

I make no apologies here for thread drift, as I find the green TOPS debate over shadows the pre-TOPS numbered locos in 1974. 

 

However, on transcribing spotting notes for my website (url at the bottom of posts), I was sent observations from August 1974, and became somewhat surprised at the number of locos with their pre-TOPS identities (not including hydraulics). 

 

Peaks seem to be high on the list (although that might simply be because a lot of the observations were from the Midland main line). Still running pre-TOPS in August 74 were -

 

27, 30, 37, 39, 41, 45, 48, 49, 53, 54, 62, 63, 64, 66, 69, 70, 71, 72, 78, 83, 84, 95, 97, 100, 103, 114, 115, 121, 122, 128, 132

 

A few WCML electrics had also escaped the 5-figure numbers

E3006, E3011, E3012, E3153

 

Have only found two 47s so far. 

1592, 1715

 

Class 45 renumbering took so long because Derby insisted on only doing so during works overhauls - thanks to this and protracted collision damage repairs to 125, Class 45 featured both the first (45101) and last (45071) BR diesels to receive TOPS numbers, around 2.5 years apart!

 

Other late unrenumbered Class 47s were 1724, and 1957 which was still in its early blue livery. 1724 was a curious case because I logged it at Reading as 47133 on 17/5/74 and 4 months later at Didcot on 21/9/74 renumbered BACK to 1724! I noted that it only carried its old number on the secondman's corner and there was a patch of blue paint over its TOPS number on the other end! This implies that these soon-to-be-ETH Class 47s were not supposed to have been renumbered, but this seems nonsensical if 47/0 numbers had been issued for them and they ran for up to a year beyond the general fleet renumbering in Feb/Mar 74 before gaining ETH (1724 = 47549 and 1592 = 47544 both in Feb 75).

 

1715 was another strange one because it was supposed to have become 47548 but never did - it was renumbered 47125 in May 74 and stayed that way. The number 47548 was never used. Perhaps there was something about 1715 which prevented its conversion, in the same way that one or two 47s were found to be unsuitable for conversion to 57s. Maybe somebody out there knows the answer to that one.......

 

Survivor 1592 was only my 6th Class 47 when seen at Truro on 22/7/68 - I recall that day well as (a) I didn't expect to see a 47 that far West on a Monday, (b) I didn't expect to see a chocolate and cream Mark 1 coach (W34885), and (c) I didn't expect a cab ride in D6315 as it ran around a pair of Mark 1s substituting for a DMU on the Falmouth branch (I should have bought a bl**dy ticket, I saw lots of Class 22s but never had haulage behind one!!) This was also the day my mother muttered "This railway thing is becoming an obsession" as I cadged a lift on the back of her scooter as she left for work in the Old County Hall just up the road from Truro station........52 years later, yeah, I guess she was right!!! :D:D:D

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Cardiff must have been getting rather adventurous with its Brush 4 allocation by 1968, if 1592 got as far west as Truro. I saw 1597 at Exeter on Aug 17th 1968, and 1598 (again at Exeter) on Aug 23rd. Or maybe Bath Road was borrowing them for SW duties, whenever they turned up on shed from Wales?

 

 

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My comment about it being a Monday was because the previous five Class 47s I'd seen, and those I didn't see but was told about (usually resulting in a gnashing of teeth!) always seemed to be later in the week. It was as if they returned to their home depots over the weekend then took a while to filter back down again. Our 'problem' in Cornwall back then was Plymouth, where interesting stuff would get taken off and replaced by a boring Warship or Western (yeah, yeah, I know....!) for the run through Cornwall. I saw my first two Class 47s (D1677 & D1640) passing through Truro in autumn 67, but Devon was already getting exotica turning up by then, judging by the Exe-Rail photo I have of Gateshead's D1111 approaching Exeter SD from the West, still in Gsyp livery so virtually brand new, surely this could only have been taken in 1967.......maybe early 1968.

Also, a photo appeared in Traction many years ago of D1502 in Gfye taking the Plymouth line from Aller Junction in 1969, on a freight IIRC. I had no idea a soon-to-be 'Generator' could get so far from the ER at that time! Then again, a mate claimed to have seen Tinsley's non-boilered D1790 at Truro in 1968...........nah, still not sure I believe him..........:nea:

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5 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Then again, a mate claimed to have seen Tinsley's non-boilered D1790 at Truro in 1968...........nah, still not sure I believe him..........

 

In 1968 Tinsley locomotives were on still on cyclical diagrams, ie, out one day, say monday for example, and back friday, having worked numerous trains on numerous regions, so , as they could be "borrowed" by a depot/region anywhere in the UK. the possibility of them being seen in strange places was high.

Examples of the diagrams included EE Type 3's on freights to London and working Kings Cross - Cleethorpes passengers and Humberside freights, and a Brush 4 diagram involving a Sheffield - York way freightliner, a Kings Cross - York leg of a Edinburgh passenger and after servicing at York, a run up to Edinburgh with another KX - Edinburgh train. Some involved diagrams to Bristol and Cardiff, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that your mates observation was correct.

 

Mike.

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16 hours ago, Neil Phillips said:

Class 45 renumbering took so long because Derby insisted on only doing so during works overhauls - thanks to this and protracted collision damage repairs to 125, Class 45 featured both the first (45101) and last (45071) BR diesels to receive TOPS numbers, around 2.5 years apart!

 

But was that not also due to the ETH conversions, as I mentioned above; Locos were not only renumbered on Works visits, were they ? 

 

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18 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

But was that not also due to the ETH conversions, as I mentioned above; Locos were not only renumbered on Works visits, were they ? 

 

 

In the case of Class 45, yes only Derby Works overhauls were renumbered, until Dec 74. At that point Class 45/0 had reached 45023 and Class 45/1 had reached 45146 - the locos due to become 45147-9 had been identified (and were probably already in works). All of these had been renumbered in random order - from Dec 74 the remaining Class 45s still out there were then renumbered 45024 - 45077 in numerical order, presumably at depots, much as other classes had been done the previous Feb/Mar 74, but it still took until Jul 75 to catch them all (except damaged D125/45071, eventually released in Dec 75).

 

I omitted 45150 because this one was a little complicated - D78 was eventually chosen, emerging in Jul 75 (5 months after 45149) but only after it had run around as 45054 since the beginning of the year! D95 became the second 45054 also during July. I'm not sure if 45150 was an afterthought to round the sub-class up to a neat 50 or a genuine need for an additional ETH loco had been identified.

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Huge numbers of locos were renumbered into Tops on depots rather than during works visits, often as not with a quick splash of blue daubed over the pre-Tops number before the new five digit one was applied. A few had this treatment and were left for a few days, or possibly weeks before the new vinyl numbers were actually applied, 31 416 (previously 5842) being a case in point at Old Oak in September '73.

 

Green patches were also applied over the old numbers on some locos of course, here's 47 494 (D1936) at Old Oak in June '74, showing exactly that but with two attempts to cover up the old number....

 

 

 

 

47 494 Old Oak 250674 D1936.jpg

Edited by Rugd1022
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On 13/11/2020 at 15:37, Neil Phillips said:

 

1715 was another strange one because it was supposed to have become 47548 but never did - it was renumbered 47125 in May 74 and stayed that way. The number 47548 was never used. Perhaps there was something about 1715 which prevented its conversion, in the same way that one or two 47s were found to be unsuitable for conversion to 57s. Maybe somebody out there knows the answer to that one.......

 

 

 

47125 was to be 47666 in the final round of ETH conversions but they ended the program at 47665; either somebody with a supernatural phobia, or a physical issue?

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There is a photo of 47256 at Immingham, taken on 19/6/77, in two ton green with full yellow ends and domino headcode. The photo is in BR: FROM GREEN TO BLUE, published earlier this year. If you`re modelling the mid 70`s British Rail I would recommend it. Probably the most comprehensive book about the livery transition I`ve seen, very handy if you`re looking to find a particular livery/number combination. I have no connection with the publisher or author, but it was well worth the price.

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10 hours ago, Rugd1022 said:

Huge numbers of locos were renumbered into Tops on depots rather than during works visits, often as not with a quick splash of blue daubed over the pre-Tops number before the new five digit one was applied. A few had this treatment and were left for a few days, or possibly weeks before the new vinyl numbers were actually applied, 31 416 (previously 5842) being a case in point at Old Oak in September '73.

 

Green patches were also applied over the old numbers on some locos of course, here's 47 494 (D1936) at Old Oak in June '74, showing exactly that but with two attempts to cover up the old number....

 

 

 

 

47 494 Old Oak 250674 D1936.jpg

 

31416 was a real oddball, it was renumbered so far ahead of the mass depot renumbering that I do wonder if OOC was guilty of 'jumping the gun'! I only saw my first TOPS Class 47 that month (47337 at Cardiff Canton, 29/9/73, clearly fresh out of Crewe Works).

 

47494 shows evidence of its first 'renumber' from 1936 (serif style) to 1936 (Rail Alphabet style) at Crewe in 1971 when fitted with ETH, and an effort was made to achieve a colour match, then a depot renumber to 47494 in 1974 when no such effort was made, although in fairness not all depots were likely to have a tin of Sherwood Green to hand. I would imagine that one advantage of placing the new number where blue locos displayed them was not having to wait until the paint dried. Strangely enough I've just recreated this effect on a model of 47091 'Thor'.

 

All green WR Class 47s were renumbered in this manner, but the LMR's 47109/188/264/333 and the ScR 's 47268 were also like this, and there were probably a few others (47271?) I guess it depended on individual depot preferences.

 

9 hours ago, russ p said:

Did any locos get domino headcodes in green? 

 

Nigb55009 mentions 47256, the same book also lists 47365/6 (in my case I do have a connection with the author, going back some years now, thanks to this shared interest).

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On 15/11/2020 at 15:52, nigb55009 said:

There is a photo of 47256 at Immingham, taken on 19/6/77, in two ton green with full yellow ends and domino headcode. The photo is in BR: FROM GREEN TO BLUE, published earlier this year. If you`re modelling the mid 70`s British Rail I would recommend it. Probably the most comprehensive book about the livery transition I`ve seen, very handy if you`re looking to find a particular livery/number combination. I have no connection with the publisher or author, but it was well worth the price.


Thanks, the cheque is in the post!

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Well Old Oak was a law unto itself at the best of times! Both 1660 'City Of Truro' and 1661 'North Star' received their repaints from green to blue in the Factory in 1971, 1660 went in with Tops style numbers on green and came out with the old style serif numbers on blue, 1661 went in the same as 1660 and came out with Tops style numbers on blue, but without the BR double arrow logo (these weren't applied until at least 1975 by which time it had become 47 077)....

 

 

 

 

D1660 & BP PADD 160871 Peter Cooling.jpg

scan0407.jpg

scan0664.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

Well Old Oak was a law unto itself at the best of times! Both 1660 'City Of Truro' and 1661 'North Star' received their repaints from green to blue in the Factory in 1971, 1660 went in with Tops style numbers on green and came out with the old style serif numbers on blue, 1661 went in the same as 1660 and came out with Tops style numbers on blue, but without the BR double arrow logo (these weren't applied until at least 1975 by which time it had become 47 077)....

 

 

 

 

D1660 & BP PADD 160871 Peter Cooling.jpg

scan0407.jpg

scan0664.jpg

 

1647 was another, finished as per 1661 but with BR logos - however the latter didn't stick very well and on one side at least the lower half soon peeled off! I think I have a not very good picture of it storming through the Cornish countryside somewhere........

Brush Veteran of this parish has two photos of 1660 soon after repaint showing that the bufferbeam cowls were painted blue - clearly not repeated on 1661. AFAIK the only other Class 47 to receive blue cowls was XP64 loco D1733.

I wasn't aware of 1660's repaint until 7/11/71, when it was sent to attend the official reopening of Truro Yard which had been ripped up and relayed throughout that summer. Displaying its unique-for-a-47 serif numbers on blue and shockingly red nameplates* it was parked in the down (Farm Industries) sidings opposite Truro East Box..........er, no, shorten that to Truro Box, as Truro West Box had just ceased to exist!I

*Up until this point the only WR namers with red 'plates had been green 1676  'Vulcan' and 1677 'Thor', painted this way during a two-year stay at Stratford (12/68-12/70).

 

56 minutes ago, Russell Saxton said:

Yes, nigh on 20 years I think now?

 

It was that 'Uncorporate Image' Traction supplement what did it, in which case, yes, coming up on 19 years! Blimey!!

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12 hours ago, SouthernBlue80s said:

So am I right to assume. The last BR loco in revenue earning service to carry a non tops number would have been one of the Westerners towards the end of February 1977?

 

D1010, D1013, D1023 and D1048, all officially withdrawn after their last day's work on the 'Western Tribute' tour of Saturday, 26th February 1977. Despite which.... D1013 was seen and photographed shunting at Newton Abbot the following week.....!

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