Mk 1 Full Brakes - why used?

[spikey]

In the mid-1950s, why might a train have run with a full brake on the end rather than a brake second?

[johnb]

Van space could be needed for parcels, packages, post and people tended to have lots of big suitcases on some routes.

[Not Captain Kernow]

To carry the large amount of parcels, mail, luggage and other items

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, johnb said:

Van space could be needed for parcels, packages, post and people tended to have lots of big suitcases on some routes.

Like routes to airports these days , but the approach now is to just not ask people to bring luggage...

[keefer]

If there was a need to, you could have a BG as well as any brake other vehicles in the train.

Any van space was allocated by destination especially if the train split or coaches were dropped en route

 

[cravensdmufan]

Additional baggage, parcels. cycles etc space.

 

I remember well that the loco hauled  Liverpool Street - Parkeson Quay Hook Continental boat train always ran with two full brake BGs at the London end.

 

Also I believe they were built 57' long (as opposed to the standard 63.5') to negotiate tighter pointwork (1st radius ) in yards (and to clear curved platforms in certain locations?).

Edited January 15, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Additional wording

[number6]

I was putting my bike in a full brake at Crewe for Euston, late 1980s, it was completely empty except for one small packet with a label on it: Live Mice - destination Bristol. They were obviously going the long way around...

[spikey]

Thanks folks.  Actually, the question stemmed from my not recalling seeing that many of them in my train-spotting days, but never having forgotten wheeling my beloved Vincent Black Shadow up a scaffold board into one at Grimsby Town when I sold it to a firm in London maybe ten years later.

[Aire Head]

21 minutes ago, spikey said:

Thanks folks.  Actually, the question stemmed from my not recalling seeing that many of them in my train-spotting days, but never having forgotten wheeling my beloved Vincent Black Shadow up a scaffold board into one at Grimsby Town when I sold it to a firm in London maybe ten years later.

 

Quite a lot were also used for Parcels traffic aswell

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Quite a lot were also used for Parcels traffic aswell

 

As well as all manner of other uses for NPCCS.

I think I have seen a published photo of a DPU hauling a full brake forming a pigeon special in the Black Country in the 1960s.   

 

Generally though some folk travelled by train with luggage back then. Weren't the Up and Down Bournemouth Belle Pullmans conveying a full brake back then ? 

[Wickham Green]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

Like routes to airports these days , but the approach now is to just not ask people to bring luggage...

.......... or charge them an arm and several legs to carry them in the hold.

[Aire Head]

1 minute ago, Covkid said:

 

As well as all manner of other uses for NPCCS.

I think I have seen a published photo of a DPU hauling a full brake forming a pigeon special in the Black Country in the 1960s.   

 

Generally though some folk travelled by train with luggage back then. Weren't the Up and Down Bournemouth Belle Pullmans conveying a full brake back then ? 

 

Wasn't there also luggage in advance so when you arrived at your destination it was already there? Would this be sent en mass?

[Tim V]

3 hours ago, spikey said:

Thanks folks.  Actually, the question stemmed from my not recalling seeing that many of them in my train-spotting days, but never having forgotten wheeling my beloved Vincent Black Shadow up a scaffold board into one at Grimsby Town when I sold it to a firm in London maybe ten years later.

Regret that decision?

[cravensdmufan]

52 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Wasn't there also luggage in advance so when you arrived at your destination it was already there? Would this be sent en mass?

Ah yes, passengers "Luggage in Advance".

 

That's brought back a memory!  When I was a child back in the 60's my parents used to avail of that service for summer holidays on the South Coast (Swanage IIRC).  I remember one year my father was more than peeved when the suitcases eventually arrived …. on the last day of our holiday!

Edited January 14, 2020 by cravensdmufan

[doilum]

2 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Quite a lot were also used for Parcels traffic aswell

1975. Took a pair of Lambrettas from Wakefield to Exeter on route to a Cornish holiday.

[cravensdmufan]

In the late 70's in addition to my weekday desk job on BR, I used to work the Travellers Fare catering trolleys on weekend services out of Euston with Mk1 stock where no dedicated catering vehicle was provided. My destinations included Aberystwyth or Holyhead (or Glasgow Central on the Rail/Coach "National Express" charter).

 

But my heart used to sink when a BG was the only brake vehicle - no cage to tie up or lock away the trolley! Just a massive empty space with the guards compartment in the middle. 

 

Happy days though. 

 

 

[corneliuslundie]

And don't forget Red Star Parcels. which went by passenger train. Quite a lot at times.

Jonathan

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

.......  Weren't the Up and Down Bournemouth Belle Pullmans conveying a full brake back then ? 

Yep, a chocolate an' cream one the Southern nicked off the Western when they had the chance !

[Aire Head]

I remember seeing somewhere something about a passenger service between Leeds and I think Leicester which was composed of about 50% NPCCS for carrying parcels aswell.

[Wickham Green]

And - talking of the Southern - don't forget some of the Dover Boat Trains carried enough luggage and/or mails to need TWO bogie vans attached to a 12-car electric set : either a pair of Motor Parcels Vans or one and a through-wired BG.

[Edwin_m]

4 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I remember seeing somewhere something about a passenger service between Leeds and I think Leicester which was composed of about 50% NPCCS for carrying parcels aswell.

A lot of overnight trains were essentially parcels workings with a seated coach or two tacked on, probably mostly for staff but any passengers for whom the rather random timings suited could use them too.  They died out in the 80s probably due to Sectorisation.  

[cravensdmufan]

2 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I remember seeing somewhere something about a passenger service between Leeds and I think Leicester which was composed of about 50% NPCCS for carrying parcels aswell.

There was a few trains like that - the 04.30 Liverpool Street - Ipswich was around 50/50 NPCCS/passenger Mk1 stock.

 

BG's for mail and newspapers. Passenger compartments sometimes full of sleeping squaddies alighting at Colchester.  I used to pick it up at Brentwood around 05.12 as the train didn't stop at my larger local station (Shenfield) because the mail sorting office was at Brentwood. 

[daveyb]

The parcels or papers were always a good option if you missed the last train out of St. Pancras. The last normal train was about 23.30 which was always a struggle from Hammersmith Palais or Brixton Academy and it was always a stopper. Catching the papers or parcels at 2 or 4ish was a bonus, but there was always the one grumpy stickler who'd not let you on.

 

An aside, why did the BGs replace the passenger carrying brakes on WCML services, so only one brake per train? It may be only an impression, there may have been just as many but I seem to remember a change in formation in the late 70s/early 80s when I was a nipper. Thinking about it, was it when the Super BGs were put with Mk3s? 

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 hours ago, jf2682 said:

From what I have read there was a shortage of passenger-carrying brake/guards vehicles (BSKs, BTKs, etc), and full brakes (BGs) were used instead.

The shortage of BSKs c1966/7 led to a number of LMR Porthole Brakes being painted Blue/Grey for use on the Euston to Manchester/Liverpool trains via Birmingham. An entertaining ride at 100mph+ if the driver forgot/ wasn't told they had one on as they still had the original bogies and were stencilled for 90mph max.

 

When services went over to later Mk2/Mk3 stock there were very few compatible brake vehicles so BGs upgraded to run at 110mph were used. My highest recorded speed on a train with one was 116mph near Milton Keynes after a delay due to livestock on the line. The guard came and sat in the 1st class as his van was too lively. 

[cravensdmufan]

7 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

A lot of overnight trains were essentially parcels workings with a seated coach or two tacked on, probably mostly for staff but any passengers for whom the rather random timings suited could use them too.  They died out in the 80s probably due to Sectorisation.  

A lot of enthusiasts used to ride the cushions on those night trains which, as you say, were essentially mail and/or parcels workings. While working at BR regional HQ I heard stories of colleagues doing just that and going straight to work in the mornings!