Mk 1 Full Brakes - why used?

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 minute ago, cravensdmufan said:

A lot of enthusiasts used to ride the cushions on those night trains which, as you say, were essentially mail and/or parcels workings. While working at BR regional HQ I heard stories of colleagues doing just that and going straight to work in the mornings! 

Had a session like that with a boss of mine. We had been playing in an office cricket match and got delayed in a bar by some ladies from the opposition office. He missed his last train home so set off an 8-hour three-leg journey on trains used by enthusiasts for positioning moves. He got back in time to start work the next morning.

[johnb]

A good number of years ago, I recall being at Shrewsbury station waiting for a DMU to Wolverhampton when a parcels train pulled in and work commenced un/loading it. Shortly after an announcement came over to the effect that "If anyone missed the 'nn:nn' to Cardiff there is a passenger coach at the front of the train on platform 'n'. The train does go to Cardiff."

This was late afternoon as I recall, so how long it took to Cardiff I cannot imagine. I may not be accurate as to the destination, but it was certainly South Wales.

 

I was quite impressed.

[cravensdmufan]

6 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The shortage of BSKs c1966/7 led to a number of LMR Porthole Brakes being painted Blue/Grey for use on the Euston to Manchester/Liverpool trains via Birmingham. An entertaining ride at 100mph+ if the driver forgot/ wasn't told they had one on as they still had the original bogies and were stencilled for 90mph max.

 

When services went over to later Mk2/Mk3 stock there were very few compatible brake vehicles so BGs upgraded to run at 110mph were used. My highest recorded speed on a train with one was 116mph near Milton Keynes after a delay due to livestock on the line. The guard came and sat in the 1st class as his van was too lively. 

AC electrics were certainly pushed hard on the WCML.

 

Very lively running a lot of the time especially on certain sections of track notorious for "wet spots"!  And didn't I know about it trying to keep the catering trolley steady while filling Maxpax plastic cups from an hot water urn perched on the top!- No Health and Safety in those days!

[spikey]

1 hour ago, Tim V said:

Regret that decision?

More than somewhat.  Initially because after I'd stripped the whole thing down to its component parts, sorted them out, then spent many a happy night shift in the toolroom carefully putting it all back together, it was one amazing motorcycle. 

 

Then more regret when I realised that mine was one of the last dozen Series D Shadows built before the firm went bust.

 

And then one day not so long ago, a pal had to go and tell me how much a genuine one goes for nowadays ...

Edited January 14, 2020 by spikey

[Gwiwer]

The BG was an all-purpose vehicle designed and introduced when the railways were still carrying any and almost all traffic offered.  They had ceased to be "common carriers" by then (obliged to provide for and carry any traffic offered) but there was considerable traffic in newspapers, parcels, luggage in advance, all manner of freight traffic which might be conveyed in crates or boxes and not need its own freight train as such, together with the need to accommodate the guard somewhere.

 

At certain times in history passenger trains have been obliged to have a brake van at or near to each end of the train; it was quite common for one to be a BG and the other a BSK.  

 

Sleeping car trains which also conveyed seated accommodation often used a BG to act as a barrier between seated and sleeping accommodation and, again, for the train guard.  The sliding end door of any Mk1 seated carriage could be locked to prevent unauthorised access to the sleeping cars but it was felt that the presence of the guard and a non-seated vehicle acted as a greater deterrent.  Overnight passengers typically carried more luggage then than they now do and some of that went in the BG.  

 

Then there was special traffic of a seasonal or occasional nature.  I well recall the BG at the end of the Penzance - Paddington afternoon train being loaded with Newlyn fish in crates and with ice loosely shovelled in around them  That never amused the guard who might find himself (always him, not her, in those days) caged in with stinking fish for a few hours.  In Spring the van was packed with boxes of daffodils which are still al major agricultural crop in that part of the country.  Occasionally there would be a farmer waiting at one of the more rural stations with a sheep to go somewhere farther up the line.  Provided they had water and a hay bale and were roped to the van inside most guards would take them.  

 

Mass events made use of BGs singly or in multiple.  I was once a part of the organised John O'Groats - Land's End cycle ride.  We travelled north from London by the Inverness sleeping car which had two BGs rather than the usual one on this night; the second was for the exclusive use of around 50 bicycles.  Upon arrival at Inverness the van was shunted around Rose Street curve onto the Far North train which then had our van at the Wick end and the usual one in the middle.  Upon arrival at Wick we all claimed our rides and the van returned empty; the shunting arrangements then in force at Georgemas Junction ensured that the return train to Inverness had both BGs coupled in the middle with two seated coaches either side!  That would have been interesting at the shorter halts.  

 

There were any number of overnight "Passenger and News" trains when railways carried newspapers and mails.  Sometimes only a BSK or BCK was provided for passengers.  The formation often changed through the night as vans were added or shunted off.  The York - Aberystwyth was one of the more interesting conveying as it did a number of former Insulfish 4-wheelers converted for parcels traffic and repainted from white to rail blue in addition to the more common bogie vans of BG and GUV type and a couple of seated coaches.  There were night trains from many London terminals often known only to those who studied timetables or who worked particularly unusual hours.  Victoria had an 03.20 to Brighton and an 03.27 to Eastbourne both formed of a class 73 loco hauling a handful of BG vans and a couple of seated coaches which from memory were a BSK and CK.  There was also a Victoria - Dover train at much the same time.  Waterloo saw the 01.40 to Yeovil Junction which was a truncated version of a train which once ended up at Padstow in the middle of the next morning.  If you wanted today's paper in North Cornwall you had to wait for that train to arrive and the papers to be distributed around the area.  

 

The BG has been a useful maid-of-all-work and while often apparently running empty has been there for a reason.  It might only have conveyed one package at one place but could have been well filled with mailbags elsewhere on its journey by day or by night.  

 

And it paid to check where the van was going before stowing anything.  I boarded the overnight Penzance - London train one night which had a BG at the rear as expected.  I checked with the guard that this was OK for the bike which, like myself, was London-bound.  "Oh no" he replied.  "E'el 'ave to go in the van up front.  This 'uns for Brizzle."  Good thing I asked!!!

 

 

[phil-b259]

2 hours ago, Covkid said:

Weren't the Up and Down Bournemouth Belle Pullmans conveying a full brake back then ? 

 

1 hour ago, Wickham Green said:

Yep, a chocolate an' cream one the Southern nicked off the Western when they had the chance !

 

That wasn’t done for luggage reasons - the original Pullman brake coaches we some of the oldest Pullman carriages in use so BR withdrew them and used a BG instead. 

 

In the final year of the Belle at least one of the BGs was in the cooperate blue and grey - not sure if the livery carried when they were first used was maroon or green.

Edited January 14, 2020 by phil-b259

[cravensdmufan]

19 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

The BG was an all-purpose vehicle designed and introduced when the railways were still carrying any and almost all traffic offered.  They had ceased to be "common carriers" by then (obliged to provide for and carry any traffic offered) but there was considerable traffic in newspapers, parcels, luggage in advance, all manner of freight traffic which might be conveyed in crates or boxes and not need its own freight train as such, together with the need to accommodate the guard somewhere.

 

At certain times in history passenger trains have been obliged to have a brake van at or near to each end of the train; it was quite common for one to be a BG and the other a BSK.  

 

Sleeping car trains which also conveyed seated accommodation often used a BG to act as a barrier between seated and sleeping accommodation and, again, for the train guard.  The sliding end door of any Mk1 seated carriage could be locked to prevent unauthorised access to the sleeping cars but it was felt that the presence of the guard and a non-seated vehicle acted as a greater deterrent.  Overnight passengers typically carried more luggage then than they now do and some of that went in the BG.  

 

Then there was special traffic of a seasonal or occasional nature.  I well recall the BG at the end of the Penzance - Paddington afternoon train being loaded with Newlyn fish in crates and with ice loosely shovelled in around them  That never amused the guard who might find himself (always him, not her, in those days) caged in with stinking fish for a few hours.  In Spring the van was packed with boxes of daffodils which are still al major agricultural crop in that part of the country.  Occasionally there would be a farmer waiting at one of the more rural stations with a sheep to go somewhere farther up the line.  Provided they had water and a hay bale and were roped to the van inside most guards would take them.  

 

Mass events made use of BGs singly or in multiple.  I was once a part of the organised John O'Groats - Land's End cycle ride.  We travelled north from London by the Inverness sleeping car which had two BGs rather than the usual one on this night; the second was for the exclusive use of around 50 bicycles.  Upon arrival at Inverness the van was shunted around Rose Street curve onto the Far North train which then had our van at the Wick end and the usual one in the middle.  Upon arrival at Wick we all claimed our rides and the van returned empty; the shunting arrangements then in force at Georgemas Junction ensured that the return train to Inverness had both BGs coupled in the middle with two seated coaches either side!  That would have been interesting at the shorter halts.  

 

There were any number of overnight "Passenger and News" trains when railways carried newspapers and mails.  Sometimes only a BSK or BCK was provided for passengers.  The formation often changed through the night as vans were added or shunted off.  The York - Aberystwyth was one of the more interesting conveying as it did a number of former Insulfish 4-wheelers converted for parcels traffic and repainted from white to rail blue in addition to the more common bogie vans of BG and GUV type and a couple of seated coaches.  There were night trains from many London terminals often known only to those who studied timetables or who worked particularly unusual hours.  Victoria had an 03.20 to Brighton and an 03.27 to Eastbourne both formed of a class 73 loco hauling a handful of BG vans and a couple of seated coaches which from memory were a BSK and CK.  There was also a Victoria - Dover train at much the same time.  Waterloo saw the 01.40 to Yeovil Junction which was a truncated version of a train which once ended up at Padstow in the middle of the next morning.  If you wanted today's paper in North Cornwall you had to wait for that train to arrive and the papers to be distributed around the area.  

 

The BG has been a useful maid-of-all-work and while often apparently running empty has been there for a reason.  It might only have conveyed one package at one place but could have been well filled with mailbags elsewhere on its journey by day or by night.  

 

And it paid to check where the van was going before stowing anything.  I boarded the overnight Penzance - London train one night which had a BG at the rear as expected.  I checked with the guard that this was OK for the bike which, like myself, was London-bound.  "Oh no" he replied.  "E'el 'ave to go in the van up front.  This 'uns for Brizzle."  Good thing I asked!!!

 

 

I really enjoyed your post -  hitting the "like" button seemed inadequate.

 

Wonderful evocative memories of railway operations from not so very long ago really.  They were the good old days as far as variety and interest was concerned.

 

Thanks for the memories!

 

 

[rab]

Can I ask, what was the difference between a BG and a GUV?

Would the latter have been used in place of a BG?

[Aire Head]

32 minutes ago, rab said:

Can I ask, what was the difference between a BG and a GUV?

Would the latter have been used in place of a BG?

 

BG = Brake Gangwayed - Has facilities for a guard and gangways to access other Gangwayed stock.

 

GUV - General Utility Vehicle - no facilities for guard, a large van to passenger coaching specifications usually has end doors to facilitate loading of items such as motor vehicles.

[Gwiwer]

15 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

BG = Brake Gangwayed - Has facilities for a guard and gangways to access other Gangwayed stock.

 

GUV - General Utility Vehicle - no facilities for guard, a large van to passenger coaching specifications usually has end doors to facilitate loading of items such as motor vehicles.

BG also standard coaching-stock curved body profile; GUV was flat-sided and able to run on routes with restricted clearances such as the Tunbridge Wells - Hastings line.  

[slilley]

3 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

That wasn’t done for luggage reasons - the original Pullman brake coaches we some of the oldest Pullman carriages in use so BR withdrew them and used a BG instead. 

 

In the final year of the Belle at least one of the BGs was in the cooperate blue and grey - not sure if the livery carried when they were first used was maroon or green.

Certainly a maroon BG was used on occassions.

 

Simon

[Edwin_m]

23 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

BG = Brake Gangwayed - Has facilities for a guard and gangways to access other Gangwayed stock.

 

GUV - General Utility Vehicle - no facilities for guard, a large van to passenger coaching specifications usually has end doors to facilitate loading of items such as motor vehicles.

Which makes the point that a parcels train couldn't be formed entirely of GUVs and CCTs.  There had to be a brake coach with guard's accommodation, and by the 80s once all the more antediluvian pre-nationalization alternatives had been withdrawn it could only be a BG or a passenger brake.  

[Aire Head]

10 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

BG also standard coaching-stock curved body profile; GUV was flat-sided and able to run on routes with restricted clearances such as the Tunbridge Wells - Hastings line.  

 

Was that the case for all GUVs and not just the MK1 versions?

[Pete the Elaner]

5 hours ago, daveyb said:

 

An aside, why did the BGs replace the passenger carrying brakes on WCML services, so only one brake per train? It may be only an impression, there may have been just as many but I seem to remember a change in formation in the late 70s/early 80s when I was a nipper. Thinking about it, was it when the Super BGs were put with Mk3s? 

By the time the aircon coaches were built, fewer brake coaches were being ordered. I am not sure any Mk3A BSOs/BFOs were built? If there were, it was not many.

The B4/B5/Commonwealth bogie was considered not good enough for passenger travel at over 100mph, so it was luggage only & therefore a full brake was preferred.

This changed when the DVTs were introduced,

[Gwiwer]

19 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Was that the case for all GUVs and not just the MK1 versions?

There were some SR-design wooden bodied vans also coded GUV afaik which were specifically used on the Hastings line because of their narrow width.  CCTs were permitted down there as well including the fractionally wider (than BR ones) SR wooden body versions

[phil-b259]

46 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

By the time the aircon coaches were built, fewer brake coaches were being ordered. I am not sure any Mk3A BSOs/BFOs were built?

 

The number of Mk3s fitted with Guards offices and handbrakes was a grand total of 3! These were 3 BFOs built for the 3 Manchester Pullman Mk3 rakes.

 

But otherwise, until the Mk3 DVTs were built every single loco hauled Mk3 train HAD to have at least one Mk1 or Mk2 'Brake' vehicle within the rake.

 

 

[cravensdmufan]

I'm enjoying this topic - a lot of useful information coming through.

[keefer]

The fastest WCML trains (110mph) only had NHAs - B4 bogied BGs with a special maintenance regime - until the DVTs came along, otherwise max speed was 100mph.

 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Wasn't there also luggage in advance so when you arrived at your destination it was already there? Would this be sent en mass?

Yes.  It came in three varieties - CL which meant it was collected at the sending point; DL which meant it was delivered at the destination, and PLA which meant it was station-to-station only if memory serves me right (or is memory getting hazy and it was collected and delivered - I need to check that one.

 

At summer holiday resorts it could turn up in considerable quantities.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, keefer said:

The fastest WCML trains (110mph) only had NHAs - B4 bogied BGs with a special maintenance regime - until the DVTs came along, otherwise max speed was 100mph.

 

And even the NHAs could be a bit hair-raising, especially if they got a bit of a tail waggle when on the back end.

[royaloak]

12 hours ago, cravensdmufan said:

Also I believe they were built 57' long (as opposed to the standard 64') to negotiate tighter pointwork (1st radius ) in yards.

More a question of preventing overloading.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

Which makes the point that a parcels train couldn't be formed entirely of GUVs and CCTs.  There had to be a brake coach with guard's accommodation, and by the 80s once all the more antediluvian pre-nationalization alternatives had been withdrawn it could only be a BG or a passenger brake.  

Sort of.  The single manning agreement of 1969 that allowed guards to travel in the rear cab of locomotives on fully fitted trains of classes 3, 4, 5, and 6 meant that the need for a vehicle on the. train with a guard's compartment, and the need to provide heating for it, was dispensed with.  By the 80s there were plenty of class 3 or 4 parcels trains with no guard's accommodation at all.  Prior to the 1969 agreement, you are correct and the guard had to travel in a guard's compartment with a brake setter, vacuum/air gauge, and handbrake on the train somewhere.

[DY444]

11 hours ago, rab said:

Can I ask, what was the difference between a BG and a GUV?

Would the latter have been used in place of a BG?

 

The WR had some air braked and eth through wired GUVs which were used on West of England trains.  I have a picture of LL 50049 arriving at Paddington on a rake of Mk2s with a GUV at the front.

[Wheatley]

Luggage in Advance finished up as part of the Red Star operation before it went west on privatisation. I had two cases handed to me at Barnsley once as 'off route' by a puzzled looking guard, they were clearly labelled "Glasgow Central - Weymss Bay".

[Aire Head]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Sort of.  The single manning agreement of 1969 that allowed guards to travel in the rear cab of locomotives on fully fitted trains of classes 3, 4, 5, and 6 meant that the need for a vehicle on the. train with a guard's compartment, and the need to provide heating for it, was dispensed with.  By the 80s there were plenty of class 3 or 4 parcels trains with no guard's accommodation at all.  Prior to the 1969 agreement, you are correct and the guard had to travel in a guard's compartment with a brake setter, vacuum/air gauge, and handbrake on the train somewhere.

 

 

Iirc prior to 1969 the brake didn't have to be the rear vehicle on a fully fitted train either. I mate be incorrect but was it a maximum of 2 vehicle behind the brake vehicle?