1912 Ford factory??

[JimF51]

Can anyone help with the location? These are 1912 UK Fords being loaded.

 

Thank you.

 

Jim F

[Adam88]

I would suggest Trafford Park.

[Gibbo675]

Hi Jim,

 

The Trafford Park Ford Motor Company's works was just west of Manchester United's Old Trafford football ground.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=17&lat=53.4640&lon=-2.3056&layers=168&right=BingHyb

 

Have fun with the maps !

 

Gibbo.

[skipepsi]

IIRC it was an assembly plant using imported parts at first.

[JimF51]

I've now been informed those are 1916 models, not 1912. Would autos have been mfr'd during the war?

 

Jim F

[Steamport Southport]

Quite possibly as they were an American company and possibly wouldn't have came under limitations placed on British companies. There might have been some leeway given if they were seen as being useful such as being made for the use of doctors.

 

But I would think that it might be just after the war.

 

I believe that the Manchester built ones were dark blue as opposed to black.

 

 

 

Jason

[Compound2632]

The railway vehicles are all Midland motor car vans. Those with plain sides (second and fifth from the camera) are either 18'6" long ones to D368, 8 built in 1904, or 20'0" long to D369, 32 built 1906/7, plus a further 3 in 1909 as replacements for accident victims. The ones with louvred sides are to D833, also 20'0" long, 52 built to lot 893, ordered on 20 Nov 1914, so into traffic at earliest in the spring of 1915. Perhaps there was a wartime need for motor cars from Ford's Trafford Park works that justified the building of these rather specialised vehicles in a relatively large quantity.

 

Interesting to see these lined up with the flap doors down to allow loading of a line of vans; the only other photo I've seen showing loading is of a single D369 vehicle, at Derby - a Rolls Royce, of course.

 

Ref. R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons (OPC, 1980).

 

What is the provenance of the photo?

Edited January 15, 2020 by Compound2632

[JimF51]

It came from this posting on my Early Rail .io group, which is mainly focused on US modeling.

 

"Our local Ford dealer has a photo on their wall of the Highland Park, Michigan, assembly plant taken in 1913 showing Model-T's being loaded into freight cars that look very European.
They are short all-steel 4-wheel cars with arched roofs.  They have side doors but are being loaded through end doors using narrow portable ramps for each wheel.
Has anyone here ever heard of such cars or have any information about them?"

 

Jim F

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, JimF51 said:

They are short all-steel 4-wheel cars with arched roofs. 

 

 

Not sure how the poster got to "all steel" - they're chiefly made of wood!

[PatC]

On 14/01/2020 at 22:02, JimF51 said:

I've now been informed those are 1916 models, not 1912. Would autos have been mfr'd during the war?

 

Jim F

 

I think there's a pretty common misconception that life in Britain, and manufacturing industry in particular, changed overnight in August 1914 the way it did in September 1939. In fact life at home, in many places, went on much as before for some time, anyway 'the war would be over by Christmas'. I've seen plenty of adverts for holiday rail excursions and charabanc trip dated 1915 and even 1916. There's a well known image of the RFC fighter ace Albert Ball VC sitting in his new Morgan sports model while on leave during, I think, 1916. So clearly Morgan were still making two-seater cyclecars 2 years into the war, hardly an essential vehicle for the war effort. Although motor manufacturers increasingly turned their facilities over to the war effort as time progressed I think it was only as the U-boat menace started to take it's toll on shipping in 1916 and 17 that things on the home front changed a great deal (I know London was on the receiving end of Zeppelin raids and east coast ports were shelled before that).

 

The Model Ts seen in the picture are certainly the original brass radiator models, produced up to 1917 when the later, cheaper, black steel radiator was introduced on UK built cars as well as US produced ones.

[Compound2632]

It's instructive to look at the orders placed on the Midland's Carriage & Wagon works:

1912: 31 lots, 3,531 vehicles, of which 3,000 were open goods/mineral wagons.

1913: 42 lots, 4,035 vehicles, of which 2,250 open goods/mineral.

1914: 30 lots, 4,191 vehicles, of which 3,250 open goods/mineral.

1915: 15 lots, 2,876 vehicles, of which 1,500 open goods/mineral. One lot for War Dept (100 meat vans).

1916: 9 lots, 2,411 vehicles, of which 2,000 open goods/mineral.

1917: 11 lots, 1,816 vehicles, of which 1,000 open goods/mineral, 750 covered goods wagons for overseas, 50 cattle wagons; balance ambulance train.

1918: 8 lots, 2,304 vehicles, of which 2,200 open goods/mineral.

1919: 5 lots, 1,450 vehicles, of which 1,200 open goods/mineral.

1920: 13 lots, 6,264 vehicles, of which 6,000 open goods/mineral.

1921: 15 lots, 2,701 vehicles, of which 2,400 open goods/mineral.

1922: 29 lots, 2,781 vehicles, of which 2,450 open goods/mineral.

 

[runs as required]

Might the T Fords be destined for WD use as staff cars ?

 

Later edit

there is a video somewhere of a large centenary assembly recently in Dorset of WW1 WD vehicles including traction engines hauling artillery and an early tank. I seem to recall WD khaki model Ts darting hither and thither in the footage,

Edited January 17, 2020 by runs as required

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, runs as required said:

Might the T Fords be destined for WD use as staff cars ?

 

Later edit

there is a video somewhere of a large centenary assembly recently in Dorset of WW1 WD vehicles including traction engines hauling artillery and an early tank. I seem to recall WD khaki model Ts darting hither and thither in the footage,

 

The video may have been from the Great Dorset Steam Fair.  They've been featuring WW1 during its centenary years.

 

Adrian

[w124bob]

Pretty sure this looks to be the same building looking from the opposite end and although not clear, the wagons do look similar. For a time Evans Halshaw's Old Trafford showroom (right next to United) had a Model T from this factory on show. There's a rich motoring history in Manchester with Rolls Royce and Gardner Engines starting in Hulme and Crossley approaching Stockport just past Longsight.

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by w124bob

[62613]

9 hours ago, w124bob said:

Pretty sure this looks to be the same building looking from the opposite end and although not clear, the wagons do look similar. For a time Evans Halshaw's Old Trafford showroom (right next to United) had a Model T from this factory on show. There's a rich motoring history in Manchester with Rolls Royce and Gardner Engines starting in Hulme and Crossley approaching Stockport just past Longsight.

 

I'm not sure, bit I think the building sloping away from the road is still extant.

 

[Compound2632]

Inside the factory, c. 1914:

 

 

From Grace's Guide.

 

The 1916 Model T was 11'2" long overall, so they must be loaded one per motor car van - which begs the question of why the motor car vans were only built 20'0" long over body when the 19th-century design of covered carriage truck, which had a very similar end door arrangement, had been built to 25 ft length as well as 20 ft length. Those were passenger-rated vehicles, whereas the motor car vans were classed as goods vehicles. The Midland also had 50 passenger-rated motor car vans, built 1906-1913; these were 31 ft over body and were intended to carry two motor cars each. These vehicles, along with the D833 vans seen in the OP photo, had louvres in the sides, unlike the earlier motor car vans and CCTs - presumably the dangers of loading vehicles under their own power into a confined space were appreciated.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Compound2632

[Pandora]

Here is a link to the Ford operation in Trafford Park,   the link states output was  6000 vehicles in the year 1914.

The facility was placed under Government control  for  WW1 and  Model T vehicles   supplied to the Forces of WW1 were 30,000

https://www.britainbycar.co.uk/trafford-park/341-ford-motor-co-ltd

[Pandora]

Reading an article for the Ford Halewood plant in Merseyside, the article refers to the pilot plant opening in October 1963 and engines and gearboxes  shipped by rail between Dagenham and Halewood , body pressings from Halewood to Dagenham by rail ,  the "Blue Trains".   Please can anyone post some information on those Ford Blue trains?

[giz]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

Reading an article for the Ford Halewood plant in Merseyside, the article refers to the pilot plant opening in October 1963 and engines and gearboxes  shipped by rail between Dagenham and Halewood , body pressings from Halewood to Dagenham by rail ,  the "Blue Trains".   Please can anyone post some information on those Ford Blue trains?

These palvans were used:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfordpalvan

 

[Steamport Southport]

6 hours ago, Pandora said:

Reading an article for the Ford Halewood plant in Merseyside, the article refers to the pilot plant opening in October 1963 and engines and gearboxes  shipped by rail between Dagenham and Halewood , body pressings from Halewood to Dagenham by rail ,  the "Blue Trains".   Please can anyone post some information on those Ford Blue trains?

 

The vans that have been in the PECO N Gauge range since the year dot. I have seen "experts" say they were fictional before today, but I used to see them all the time in the 1970s.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/8932/peco_products_nr_p55_pallet_van_ford_blue/stockdetail.aspx

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/52467/peco_products_nr_p57a_pallet_van_ford_b787044/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Gibbo675]

On 18/01/2020 at 16:55, Pandora said:

Reading an article for the Ford Halewood plant in Merseyside, the article refers to the pilot plant opening in October 1963 and engines and gearboxes  shipped by rail between Dagenham and Halewood , body pressings from Halewood to Dagenham by rail ,  the "Blue Trains".   Please can anyone post some information on those Ford Blue trains?

Hi Pandora,

 

Ford also used grey thirty foot container boxes which I think went to a factory in Belgium via Harwich.

 

There is a photograph of the containers behind a class 86 half way down this page.

 

Gibbo.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Getting back to WW1-era Model T:

 

The Model T formed the basis for a thing called the Crewe Tractor, which was a very light locomotive for use on WDLR 2ft gauge field railways. It consisted of not much more than a Model T without wheels, plonked on a wagon chassis, with drive connected from a sprocket on the axle of the car by chain to one on the axle of the wagon. I think the idea was that the car could be converted road-rail-road- ...... quite simply.

 

Quite a large number of Crewe Tractors were built, but I think they were  rather feeble for practical locomotive use.

 

Some good photos here http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-crewe-tractor-ford-model-t-chassis.html

Edited January 19, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The Model T formed the basis for a thing called the Crewe Tractor, which was a very light locomotive for use on WDLR 2ft gauge field railways. It consisted of not much more than a Model T without wheels, plonked on a wagon chassis, with drive connected from a sprocket on the axle of the car by chain to one on the axle of the wagon.

 

Beamish Museum have re-created one - photos here, including a WW1 period one of a tractor hauling a couple of trolley-loads of shells.