Cost of Adding Sound to a Locomotive

[boxbrownie]

9 minutes ago, Hamburger said:

Maybe its due to a certain fee for development of a sound programmer device and related software and firmware?
Costs have to earn back.
It's certainly much more complicated than a firmware for a non-sound decoder.

Yes of course development costs are incurred, but to be frank the actual components involved really are peanuts in cost.

 

I guess the software boffins at the bigger companies are all driving Bentleys and Porches then? 

[Sir TophamHatt]

I wonder if part of this is the recent "I will not have a job but live off YouTube money" thing people seem to have.

 

For me, I wouldn't give up my full time job unless I was doing something that started as a hobby, that could pay more for a very long, sustainable amount of time.  But then perhaps it is what you make it.

 

Another question - people who are programming chips... is it work, or just a hobby?

I am pretty on it with databases and sorting out / tagging mp3 files properly (ensuring all have their proper album art).  It's not work, but rather a slightly less enjoyable hobby.  I see a lot of that same thing in YouTube "creators" - you can hardly call making and uploading YouTube videos "work" in the same sense as a normal 9-5 call centre job.

 

 

But I do value sound creators and if they're making a living out of it - good on them!
Wish I'd have got into it before, and then maybe I could have a more enjoyable job, that's really just a hobby!

Edited January 17, 2020 by Sir TophamHatt

[boxbrownie]

16 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

 

 

The argument can be made about almost anything. Does an iPhone have £1000 of components for example? probably not.

 

And it is an “argument” that is made about most things that people moan about the cost of, and TBH it gets a bit tiresome and never seems to be backed up by solid answers.

 

Anyhoo......I am willing to pay what they cost presently, so that’s it for me.....keep up the great work you sterling bunch of sound recordist/editor/creators of amazing Loco sounds for us mere mortals 

[Hamburger]

28 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I guess the software boffins at the bigger companies are all driving Bentleys and Porches then? 

Obviously not:

https://www.bba-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2/5/2514424.jpg

https://www.bba-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2/5/2514425.jpg

https://www.bba-online.de/wp-content/uploads/2/5/2514421.jpg

[Gerrard]

7 hours ago, legomanbiffo said:

 

In that case I feel you need to stretch your imagination a bit further :-) If it was so easy then why are there not dozens of sound programmers producing competing high quality sound chips at knock-down prices? Let us explore the path involved in bringing high qualty  loco sounds to market;

 

You need to invest in a high quality, multi-channel solid state recording device. Two actually, in case one fails on the day you paid £1000 to record a loco. Ditto with microphones, cables, boom poles etc.

 

You need a few years experience to work out where to put those mics to obtain the best, representative sound. Experience = cost, time, effort, mistakes etc 

 

You need to arrange access to the loco. If you worked in the industry you might be able to arrange free access to a handful of classes but to nurture the relationships that enable access to an extensive range of prototypes takes considerable time, effort and expense.

 

You often need to pay considerable sums to facilitate said access, four-figure sums are not uncommon in the case of preserved railways.

 

You need to travel to the venue, which might be at the other end of the country, and stay overnight to allow an early start. So then you’re paying for an evening meal and breakfast. And possibly a second night if you don’t want to travel home after an early start and a full day’s recording at the other end of the country.

 

And what if you do all that and the loco fails or is otherwise unusable on the day? That’s happened to me more than once. Imagine driving 200 miles, staying overnight, turning up at 0900 only to find that a simple breakdown in communication between two people at the railway had left the loco in bits for maintenance on the day you were supposed to be recording it?

 

Spend all day capturing the various sounds. Sometimes two days if you have to capture the static sounds separately for whatever reason. 

 

When you get home, back up the several Gb of data you’ve obtained onto multiple drives including offsite ones, to mitigate against losing your hard-earned raw material and livelihood if there was a failure.

 

Listen to hours of recordings to identify the usable bits.

 

Chop up the raw recordings into the small clips necessary to load onto the chip. Around 250 of them in the case of a sophisticated project like the Hattons 66. Edit each and every one of them so that it merges seamlessly with its neighbours.

 

Design a flowchart for the individual sound that mimics the operation of the prototype (so that your Class 56 compressor changes over once a minute for example, or your Javelin can change from overhead 25kV to third rail and back again with the correct sounds at each stage).

 

Add any sounds or functionality that’s changed over the years in the prototype (eg mk4 coaches; at least three combinations of door opening and closing mechanisms and beepers, HST’s; 3 different engine types and several different cooler groups, 08’s; replacement metal doors that sound completely different to the wooden originals, and so on).

 

Buy the target model if you don’t already have one. Think about that one for a moment. Every single new model that comes out you have to buy or borrow to allow you to set up the chip to suit the mechanism, lights, inertia etc.

 

Load the sounds into the model and test everything. Set up the inertia so the model accelerates as fast as the prototype and has the correct top speed. Set the lights to be as dim or bright as the prototype. Configure the various lighting modes. Set the individual sound volumes to be in proportion to one another. Make everything loud enough.

 

Repeat all of the above for the N gauge and O gauge model...

 

Then when your chip is on sale there’s the workload involved in supporting customers who rightly expect knowledgeable answers to a vast array of questions they might have. What’s the best speaker? How do I set the CV’s to do this or that? Will it work with this or that controller?

 

I could go on but hopefully this gives you some idea of the effort involved?

 

Thanks Legoman, that breakdown certainly helps towards justifying the cost. Though much of the infrastructure and capital equipment you mention will be depreciated over the production of many products and you could apply the same steps to many things that have a lot lower unit cost. I guess it comes down to volumes, which brings me back to wondering if the unit cost were lower, would the increased volume compensate?

 

Thinking about the Hornby TTS chips, are they that much lesser in quality proportionally to their significantly cheaper price? How do Hornby make the numbers add up?

 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Gerrard

[Albie the plumber]

Wonder how many railway modellers out there actually run their own business'

Not many I rather fancy . 

Get asked the same sorts of questions when handing them a bill for their plumbing /heating work .

 

I tell them its because I'm hooked on sound chips !  

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, Albie the plumber said:

Wonder how many railway modellers out there actually run their own business'

Not many I rather fancy . 

Get asked the same sorts of questions when handing them a bill for their plumbing /heating work .

 

I tell them its because I'm hooked on sound chips !  

Blimey down here the plumbers can easily afford two Loksounds chips a day 

[letterspider]

I think I have an idea how we can cheaper sound chips and cheaper train models

Now that we have left the EU, the government can issue a directive that UK train manufacturers should seek to provide sound files and CADs for the purpose of encouraging the skills of tomorrow in sustainable micro manufacturing.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by letterspider
typo

[pauliebanger]

But only if they don't eat.

 

Paul

[Nile_Griffith]

19 hours ago, Richard Croft said:

Maybe the sound isn't to scale but to my ears at least the models which produce sounds are more realistic than the ones that don't

 

Richard

 

My remark about not being able to scale sound is not a critique of those modellers who enjoy hearing locomotive related sound effects emanating from their models. I guess what my remark alluded to was the contradiction (to my mind at least), that seems to exist within the hobby when it comes to DCC sound. Personally I've seen some beautifully modelled layouts where their owner operators have pursued to the 'nth methods and techniques to get scenery and structures to the point that they could have been placed there after using Gru's Shrink Ray (watch "Despicable Me"). I've then watched the same diligent artisans go as giggly as a couple of love struck school girls because one of their model loco's made a clanking noise as it shunted up to a wagon or such like. And when I have suggested to them (lightheartedly). That in scale terms the sound that they would actually hear in the real world and from their God like position above the scene would be noticeably different, due to all manner of acoustic principles. They look at me like I've just kicked the model club's dog!

 

As said If you enjoy DCC sound, great!!! and may you carry on doing so. But again and as said you can't scale sound.

[Albie the plumber]

2 hours ago, Nile_Griffith said:

 

My remark about not being able to scale sound is not a critique of those modellers who enjoy hearing locomotive related sound effects emanating from their models. I guess what my remark alluded to was the contradiction (to my mind at least), that seems to exist within the hobby when it comes to DCC sound. Personally I've seen some beautifully modelled layouts where their owner operators have pursued to the 'nth methods and techniques to get scenery and structures to the point that they could have been placed there after using Gru's Shrink Ray (watch "Despicable Me"). I've then watched the same diligent artisans go as giggly as a couple of love struck school girls because one of their model loco's made a clanking noise as it shunted up to a wagon or such like. And when I have suggested to them (lightheartedly). That in scale terms the sound that they would actually hear in the real world and from their God like position above the scene would be noticeably different, due to all manner of acoustic principles. They look at me like I've just kicked the model club's dog!

 

As said If you enjoy DCC sound, great!!! and may you carry on doing so. But again and as said you can't scale sound.

We all love this wonderful hobby .

but its a hobby packed full of compromises 

Train set curves , tension lock couplings , 00 gauge track !

One more compromise will make no difference .

Often wish my girlfriend would stop whining , but she doesn't !

I still love her though 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Albie the plumber

[pauliebanger]

2 hours ago, Nile_Griffith said:

And when I have suggested to them (lightheartedly). That in scale terms the sound that they would actually hear in the real world and from their God like position above the scene would be noticeably different, due to all manner of acoustic principles. They look at me like I've just kicked the model club's dog!

 

Why are you surprised at their reaction? Pretty restrained, I'd say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tallpaul69]

Shifting the focus of the argument a bit cos I think we have done the "We think sound chips are a rip off" v "We understand the costs involved" discussion to death, one thing that does my head in is the lack of standardization in the sockets fitted in "DCC Ready" locos. I understand that "small" 00 locos and N locos need small sockets. And I realise that the original sockets were designed before sound was widely used.

But just to complicate matters we have Bachmann coming up with yet another set of sockets! Do we really need this added complication, I don't currently see the benefit to us?

Also:-

There doesn't seem to be adequate conversion boards of useable size around.

But maybe its just because I try to save money by using second hand or TTS chips?

 

Lets keep smiling and enjoy our wonderful hobby!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Locoman58]

5 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Shifting the focus of the argument a bit cos I think we have done the "We think sound chips are a rip off" v "We understand the costs involved" discussion to death, one thing that does my head in is the lack of standardization in the sockets fitted in "DCC Ready" locos. I understand that "small" 00 locos and N locos need small sockets. And I realise that the original sockets were designed before sound was widely used.

But just to complicate matters we have Bachmann coming up with yet another set of sockets! Do we really need this added complication, I don't currently see the benefit to us?

Also:-

There doesn't seem to be adequate conversion boards of useable size around.

But maybe its just because I try to save money by using second hand or TTS chips?

 

Lets keep smiling and enjoy our wonderful hobby!

 

Cheers

Paul

This is why I now distribute in Uk D&H Decoders.

I offer my sound projects on D&H German sound decoders at £85 with my  sounds

I try to offer what you modellers ask, good product with quality sound at a fair price.

Grazie for your reply

Saluti

Locoman

Edited January 17, 2020 by Locoman58

[PaulRhB]

When people say the costs of equipment get spread over multiple products do they have any idea of the numbers involved compared to these mass produced products quoted?

The scale of the market for sound chips is tiny compared to a phone, sound decoders are a niche of the dcc part of the niche model railways hobby!

So on a fraction of the market you have to make more profit to break even on much smaller numbers otherwise why set up as a business? Should the decoder makers and sound file producers have to work for minimum wage equivalent or hold down a second job to make it work, as most do anyway at least initially?

As Biff showed it’s a skilled job and Biff and Paul provide lots of support on here, which is actually support or marketing in reality so work time again. 
Comparing to hearing aids and other expensive specialist electronics is far closer in market size although I suspect still a fair bit larger than a dcc sound decoder  

[pauliebanger]

5 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Comparing to hearing aids and other expensive specialist electronics is far closer in market size although I suspect still a fair bit larger than a dcc sound decoder  

 

You're probably right - and they don't even come with a UK sound project loaded.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[boxbrownie]

2 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

 

You're probably right - and they don't even come with a UK sound project loaded.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Eh...pardon?

[pauliebanger]

You Hot?

[Andy Reichert]

There's also the problem of sound decoders producing sounds that are nothing like hearing the real thing pulling a train going past in the open with real background noise.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-HNXZRJP0Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plIE6wwL6sE

 

Andy

 

 

[jpendle]

9 hours ago, Richard Croft said:

 

The argument can be made about almost anything. Does an iPhone have £1000 of components for example? probably not.

 

Richard

 

An iPhone has nothing like 1000 pounds worth of components in it, a DCC sound decoder has nothing like 100 pounds worth of components in it. The margin on anything like this is at least 50% and probably more, AND that's as it should be.

 

I work for an electronics manufacturer, we sell stuff for $35k that costs $2k to manufacture. The manufacturing cost of any sophisticated electronics product is a very small fraction of the overall costs of bring a product to market.

 

Market research, design, manufacturing, cost of sales, etc. Then add to that mix, pensions, benefits, regulatory approvals, warranty costs, product liability costs, etc, etc. You could argue that the ancillary staff at any business don't add any value to the product (cleaners, caterers, receptionists), you could also argue that Quality Control, Warehousing, & Shipping staff add no value. But the bottom line is they all have to be paid, and all that work has to be done, but none of it has anything to do with taking a kit of electronics parts and soldering them to a PCB. I could go on, but I won't.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Tallpaul69]

13 hours ago, Locoman58 said:

This is why I now distribute in Uk D&H Decoders.

I offer my sound projects on D&H German sound decoders at £85 with my  sounds

I try to offer what you modellers ask, good product with quality sound at a fair price.

Grazie for your reply

Saluti

Locoman

Laudable though your products and the effort you have put in are, I don't think the difference between £85 and £100-120 is sufficient to ramp up the demand to carve you more than a niche in a small market.

Now addressing the wider question:-

It seems to me that there will be little increased demand and hobby satisfaction unless the price can be reduced to sub £70.

 

Now I agree that everyone needs to make a living if it is their sole source of income even if they are doing something commercially in a hobby they love.

So how do we get below £70 for a sound chip. Whatever we do the development costs are going to be about the same, but might money be saved by reducing some of the added functions on the chips? Or not sourcing chips from Continental manufacturers?

How about one of our Retailer/model developers putting effort into getting a UK chip made in the far east instead of yet another niche model or duplication (with a few added bells and whistles) of another loco in good supply?

For instance how often does the "crew cooking their breakfast" function get used? Or the wheel squeal or the buffer clank?

I understand that shunting requires a different sound mix to main line running, but might some sounds be better (or cheaper) provided by stationary sound systems?

 

Or looking at it another way, does it really cost £40 per chip (difference between TTS and Locoman), to allow more than 2 functions simultaneously and synchronise the chuffs with the motion of the driving wheels?

What percentage of the time do you honestly use more than 2 functions simultaneously? (if not shunting!)

I find it hard to differentiate between synchronised chuffs and non synchronised chuffs, particularly with trains running at more than a snails pace. But maybe I am just deaf and blind! 

Better go and hide before you lot read the above!!!

 

Cheers

Paul

[PaulRhB]

Paul, for basic chips there already is TTS so why go head to head unless you can offer more for that price? You aren’t going to get sufficient return on investment unless you offer something not already on offer

The knowledge and investment required are substantial to make your own and just copying has already landed a couple of manufacturers in trouble!

It’s not as simple as people think because of all the parameters that need to be covered. Different motors in different makers locos, wheel size, loco size, whistles etc. 
Finally the market covers a broad range so tooling up a top range chip and a basic one as well nearly doubles the cost over just offering the better one and allowing the user to choose what functions they use. I only use three to five functions on mine but not everyone will want to use those same five and somebody has to program which ones are active. 
It’s easy enough to say why doesn’t someone do it but the lack of hordes doing so actually reveals that when they look at it it’s pretty expensive  

[rogerzilla]

When I've heard sound at exhibitions, it's never struck me as particularly impressive.  Due to small speakers - and there's nothing that can be done about that - it's rather tinny.  Maybe that's how sound would "scale" anyway?  Works a bit better for diesels, since otherwise you miss the idling sound at rest (steam engines make little noise unless moving, just the blower and sometimes the injectors).

 

In N gauge, you'd need to run big mainline diesels throughout in order to have sound fitted to all locos.  Not much change of getting sound into a Class 03 shunter - it's hard enough to squash a normal decoder in there.  Apparently you can't even get sound into a Class 24 or 25.

Edited January 18, 2020 by rogerzilla

[Shropshire Lad]

I have both a 24 and a 25 in N gauge with sound.

Cheers Colin

Edited January 18, 2020 by Shropshire Lad
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[Sir TophamHatt]

18 hours ago, Nile_Griffith said:

But again and as said you can't scale sound.

 

I understand ya, don't worry!

 

While mega bass, earth movers, this and that are all great - they're still not particularly like the real thing.

Tiny speakers by their very nature will produce tinny sound.  Some are much better than others.

 

I wonder if long multiple units are also a problem.

Take the Voyager - I guess without wiring through, you'd need at least 3 sound decoders with speakers to get engines spread throughout the train?  That means cost will be tripled.