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Cost of Adding Sound to a Locomotive


Gerrard
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2 hours ago, tarifa said:

Not so long ago "reblows" cost around £10 to £12 compared to the £20+ now being charged.  The costs to record are the same but the charges to the punter have increased double fold, I wonder why.

 

Presumably that's because the newer decoders have more memory and can therefore store a greater quantity of recorded sounds.  The increased number of functions available plus the increased library of sound clips on the chip means that the producers will spend more time editing the files and mapping the functions and fine tuning to get the best out of the new functionality.  Time equals money, so the costs will rise.  There is of course no guarantee that the costs to record have stayed the same - that's only an unsubstantiated statement.  Now that the latest generation of chips are capable of storing genuine CD quality sound it may be that the sound producers have had to invest in newer recording technology, which will in turn push up the price, or at the very least, they may need to record a greater number of sounds, which requires more storage capacity to be hooked up to their recording equipment.

 

Of course it could be that they struggled to make a living at the lower price and now charging a more realistic fee for the amount of work involved.

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13 minutes ago, Hamburger said:

Yes and no because that is exactly where you will find Locoman's D&H decoders.

For £ 85.

(Unfortunately, the vast library of sounds is still missing)

 

Which underlines the fact that there is already a DCC Sound option to suit everyone's budget.

 

For those who want a £40 sound decoder, we have Hornby' TTS (twin track sound)

For those who want a £70 sound decoder, we have the Soundtraxx Econami (multi channel but fairly generic)

For those who want a £85 sound decoder, we have D&H decoders (with Locoman's sounds)

For those who want a £100 sound decoder, we have Zimo decoders

For those who want a £120 sound decoder, we have ESU decoders

 

Ultimately there is always a trade off between price and quality and it's up to each individual to decide how much they are willing to pay and what quality and features / functionality they desire.

 

Ultimately, if there was a lot of money to made in producing sound files for DCC sound decoders, then we would have these vast libraries of sounds available for whatever prototype you want on whichever decoder we choose.  The fact that the vast library of sounds do not exist suggests that it's perhaps not as lucrative a market as some would like to think and that the producers are not actually making a killing fleecing all of us poor modellers who don't want to do it ourselves. 

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I've followed this topic with some bemusement as a lot of the discussion on here clearly comes from the typical modellers attitudes of "how much?" "Cor blimey!"

I'm reminded of Robbie Coltrane when he said of air passengers moaning about the in-flight food - "You're sitting in a tin can, doing 500 Mph at 35,000 feet, for heaven's sake!"

Don't you find it utterly remarkable that our tiny replicas can look, move and sound pretty much like the real thing?

I have been "into" sound since Roco (& ESU!) introduced it, way back in what? The mid 1990s? Those initial decoders were pretty basic but from what I've seen, can still outperform a TTS chip! I only have a couple of them now but they still sound quite reasonable and perform beautifully.

The ESU V.2 is better but the V.3 and V3.5 are better still and surely - if you must have sound, you can find such decoders for sale quite cheaply on ebay or from secondhand sound fitted locos (even european H0!). Sell on the loco you 'robbed' and then get your decoder reblown, what's wrong with that? My last batch of V3.5s were from a mate who was upgrading to V5s and cost me a mere £50 each.

 

I don't run a £1000 iPhone either, I run an older but still perfectly functional model that does everything I need it to and cost way less than new prices.

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As Allegheny1600 says, there are options if you don't want to spend £100 or so a loco.

 

My journey in sound began with a QSI decoder in a union pacific F3, and I'd guess that was in 2005/6 or something like that.

 

The company seems to have vanished sadly, but they had user downloadable sounds and features like auto brake sounds, manual notching and the 'sound of power' that let you fix speed and then control engine revs as the loco went on its way. 

 

But that cost about £100 when I bought the decoder.

 

That high end decoders still cost that now, 15 years later, seems remarkable to me. The engines that I put them in have gone from £80 to £180 in the same time.

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2 hours ago, NoggintheNog said:

As Allegheny1600 says, there are options if you don't want to spend £100 or so a loco.

 

My journey in sound began with a QSI decoder in a union pacific F3, and I'd guess that was in 2005/6 or something like that.

 

The company seems to have vanished sadly, but they had user downloadable sounds and features like auto brake sounds, manual notching and the 'sound of power' that let you fix speed and then control engine revs as the loco went on its way. 

 

But that cost about £100 when I bought the decoder.

 

That high end decoders still cost that now, 15 years later, seems remarkable to me. The engines that I put them in have gone from £80 to £180 in the same time.

Yes, there are options if you don't want to (can't afford to!) spend £100+ per loco.

 

However, those options are not all that good, and there are not many of them, especially outside the most common locos,(and I exclude all the oddball low volume models!) see below, (with apologies to Dungrange and his original comment a few posts ago, which I have altered in italics!):-

 

For those who can only afford a £40 sound decoder, we have Hornby' TTS (twin track sound)(IMHO better than £40 especially diesels but limited range even in Hornby prototypes)

For those who can only afford a £70 sound decoder, we have the Soundtraxx Econami (multi channel but fairly generic). Agreed but still a limited range

For those who can afford a £85 sound decoder, we have D&H decoders (with Locoman's sounds) Limited but growing range, IMHO 15% saving is not all that attractive

For those who can afford (maybe because they only have a few locos?) a £100 sound decoder, we have Zimo decoders Good but expensive

For those who can afford (maybe because they only have a few locos?) a £120 sound decoder, we have ESU decoders Good, but IMHO not worth the 20% cost uplift.

 

So I am suggesting there is room for someone to make a move to improve the sub £70 market?? I think the people with medium/ large fleets and limited budgets (such as the large number of retired people in this hobby!) are poorly served.

 

I agree the uplift in Loco prices is huge, and is why I spend less now on locos than I did 10 years ago, so I have to be very selective on what I buy!

 

Cheers

Paul

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

surely thats the whole point though? if you want better performance, better sounds , more accuracy then you spend the money and go for the 'Rolls Royce' option, if you don't have the budget for that then you are forced to go for a lower spec item. It's the same for anything; some people like M&S food, some people think its too expensive and go to Asda.

 

Its good that we have a choice. I think because £120 for a sound decoder is within reach of a lot of people they feel like they have to go for the top of the range option every time, but they dont have to.

 

Richard

 

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Just now, Tallpaul69 said:

 

 

4 minutes ago, Richard Croft said:

surely thats the whole point though? if you want better performance, better sounds , more accuracy then you spend the money and go for the 'Rolls Royce' option, if you don't have the budget for that then you are forced to go for a lower spec item. It's the same for anything; some people like M&S food, some people think its too expensive and go to Asda.

 

Its good that we have a choice. I think because £120 for a sound decoder is within reach of a lot of people they feel like they have to go for the top of the range option every time, but they dont have to.

 

Richard

Sorry Folks pressed wrong button!

Fair comment Richard,

What I am trying to say (perhaps not very well!) is that we don't have good choices. The lower cost options are far inferior in the range of models that can fitted, and there should be better options for those who don't have the £120 budget.

 

I think a lot of people are having to settle for completely non sound DCC, or with just a few sound fitted locos who would love to do more Sound but are frightened that once they put a toe in the water they will be sucked into paying out more money than they can afford? (Bit like current media frenzy about gambling!).

If there were better entry level options more would try and might be able to go for sound in a careful way.

 

Then, in the end there would be more sound business for suppliers.

 

Ask yourself for instance,why, when DCC Sound has been around for 20 years, that sound in many exhibitions is found on only some 10% of layouts, and of those, a good number are of specialist models such as North American layouts (are their chips relatively cheaper?)?   

 

Cheers

Paul

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I dont buy the whole TTS is awful bit. For the price of one ESU chip I can fit 3 locos with TTS chips and up spec the speakers. That itself creates a far more realistic scene than having one sound fitted loco and the rest silent until I've decided if I want to get the food shopping for a week or a discretionary purchase of a top line sound chip and hope my missus doesn't  check the bank statement.  By all means indulge yourselves if you can afford to but can we give the Hornby bashing a rest please? They open up sound to a huge number more people than was possible before  have good after sales service and my kids love it.  I have chips in locos they were not meant for but the only person who knows is me and i couldn't give a flying fig. If we keep on moaning about them it could be a popular product that a noisy minority convince the manufacturer has no place in a serious hobby...like sitting in my loft playing trains.

 

Best regards Chris

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I'm not convinced that there is a huge market that would make it worthwhile developing a mid-priced sound decoder option with an extensive range of sounds - primarily because I think the market is perhaps already polarised between cost and quality.  On the one hand, there are plenty of questions on here about "who does the best sound for a Class xxx?", suggesting that these people want quality - maximum fidelity.  If you want quality, then you're going to have to pay for the quality option, which is the top end of the price spectrum and that is a principal not limited to sound decoders.

 

On the other hand, there are the people who want the cheapest way of getting sound, whether that is driven by budget or something else.  They may not be able to tell the difference between the sounds made by a Class xxx and a Class yyy, so they are content to fit a Hornby TTS decoder for a Class xxx in their Bachmann Class yyy.  As long as it sounds like a diesel locomotive or a steam locomotive, that's good enough for their toy train.

 

We're then left with the potential market for a mid-priced decoder range, who are those who really want the fidelity and features of a quality decoder but at a budget price.  Ultimately, these people need to put everything in perspective when making their choice.

 

If you have £2,000 to spend, you can probably buy 12 analogue non-sound locomotives at around £170 each.  If you decide to go with DCC rather than DC then you can't afford 12 new locomotives, because you have to allocate some of your money to purchase decoders.  If you go for the cheapest, something like Lais, then you can probably still buy 11 locomotives.  You're buying budget decoders instead of the 12th locomotive. If you'd prefer better quality non-sound decoders for improved running characteristics, then you can only buy 10 locomotives.  If you want sound and consider Hornby's TTS chips to be good enough, then you can probably still buy nine locomotives and fit them all with TTS chips.  It's only accepting one fewer locomotive in your collection to upgrade to sound.

 

If you're happy enough with say Bachmann's factory fitted sound option, which typically uses a decoder supplied by ESU or Zimo, then you can probably only afford eight locomotives, assuming the sound option of the locomotive you want retails around £250.  Then you're left with those who want a decoder that can be re-blown with sound files from a particular supplier with an upgraded speaker, which may require milling of the chassis and perhaps that means reducing the locomotive stud to just six or seven locomotives.

 

Perhaps it's best not to think of the cost of the better quality decoders in terms of their actual monetary cost, but in terms of the reduced number of locomotives that you will be buying with your budget - remembering that we probably all own too many locomotives.

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I can appreciation that some folk want to hear the sound of the steam hissing from the cylinders and the loud roar of the smoke blasting high up and out of the chimney. But where is that realistic steam and huge boiling column of smoke that is making those "realistic" noises???

 

Andy

 

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5 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

I can appreciation that some folk want to hear the sound of the steam hissing from the cylinders and the loud roar of the smoke blasting high up and out of the chimney. But where is that realistic steam and huge boiling column of smoke that is making those "realistic" noises???

 

Andy

 

If you follow that line of thinking to its logical conclusion one could argue that there are enough other reasons why our models are unrealistic, so why bother striving for 'realism' at all?.

 

David

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Just now, Kylestrome said:

 

If you follow that line of thinking to its logical conclusion one could argue that there are enough other reasons why our models are unrealistic, so why bother striving for 'realism' at all?.

 

David

 

But the thought has just occurred to me that any sound decoder is far more realistic if the loco is off scene. 

 

Andy

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15 minutes ago, Andy Reichert said:

 

But the thought has just occurred to me that any sound decoder is far more realistic if the loco is off scene. 

 

Andy

 

I had one of the Lionel locos around the Xmas tree, my 2 year old granddaughter went into raptures at the whistle and bell. The “chuffing” sound puzzled or offended her, apparently, and it was switched off forthwith by executive fiat. 

 

For those who haven't heard it, 80s-era Sounds Of Steam sounds more like a concrete mixer than any steam loco I’ve ever heard. The early electronic whistle is known as the “barking seal” or “dying cow”. But it commanded a premium at the time...

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14 hours ago, Andy Reichert said:

I can appreciation that some folk want to hear the sound of the steam hissing from the cylinders and the loud roar of the smoke blasting high up and out of the chimney. But where is that realistic steam and huge boiling column of smoke that is making those "realistic" noises???

 

Andy

 

That is the one sticking point I have with steam sound fitted Locos with diesels it can be “imagined away” but lack of all the steam/smoke is different.

 

When we had a garden railway in LGB the steamers produces copious amounts of smoke/steam from the smoke units aboard, just about got away with it.

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I’m not a fan of smoke, generally speaking. Lionel are big on this, if your pockets reach that far down, you can have smoke emitted from the whistle, smoke from the tender to simulate spray from using the water trough... I don’t know about cylinder cocks. 

 

I don’t care for it, myself. The whole “jets of steam under pressure” isn’t there, so why bother? 

 

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2 hours ago, rockershovel said:

I’m not a fan of smoke, generally speaking. Lionel are big on this, if your pockets reach that far down, you can have smoke emitted from the whistle, smoke from the tender to simulate spray from using the water trough... I don’t know about cylinder cocks. 

 

I don’t care for it, myself. The whole “jets of steam under pressure” isn’t there, so why bother? 

 

 

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On 15/01/2020 at 22:22, Gerrard said:

I get that there's effort involved in recording and editing the sounds. And some more work in the 'program', but that still doesn't justify the unit cost in my view. Not when compared to other consumer electronics that are far, far more complicated.

But you are not in full possession of all the facts. Just because you work in IT does not mean that you are an expert in this field. Its basic economics, supply and demand. If they weren’t selling at this price they would be cheaper or not sold at all!

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Staying with basic economics - there are large fixed costs to making sound decoders and more particularly sound sets, so their marginal cost of manufacture is low. If you believe that the price elasticity of demand for sounds is high, then you would expect that cutting prices would lead to more sales and also more profits. It seems that Hornby, and to a lesser extent Bachmann, have explored that relationship. In N Gauge I have noted that Bachmann's OEM deal with Zimo for the MX622 DCC decoder led to a dramatic reduction in price, and that Farish are making plug-in sound a feature of new models and offering sound fitted models at a discount to third party solutions.

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  • 2 months later...
On 24/01/2020 at 00:14, royaloak said:

Has Gerrard released his series of all singing all dancing £50 sound decoders yet?

 

With my newly available free time, I'm working on them. They'll be £10 and knock spots off anything Zimo make :D

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On 23/01/2020 at 21:46, Haymarket47 said:

But you are not in full possession of all the facts. Just because you work in IT does not mean that you are an expert in this field. Its basic economics, supply and demand. If they weren’t selling at this price they would be cheaper or not sold at all!

 

Or perhaps, someone is making a killing?

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44 minutes ago, Gerrard said:

 

Or perhaps, someone is making a killing?

Perhaps someone is making a living with some put by for a total shutdown of their business or an extended stay in hospital?
It’s inevitable that once someone does something like this others will copy it too limiting your market, you can patent certain things but decoders are very difficult to protect as multiple cheap copies already have shown.
Producing it on your own workbench and then producing it at any scale is quite different in costs unless you and one robot can reproduce it and send it out. Employ someone to answer the phone and someone to package it while you produce them and you’ll see costs escalate rather fast ;) 

We are all for cheaper sounds but if you’re going to make assertions that someone’s on the fiddle then it would help to have figures to back it up or a proven product available in numbers to prove the point. We’ve seen the ultimate step forward in model railways fall flat on its face with someone at the helm who had the supposed experience in one of the bigger model companies ;) 

Let the product speak before getting too derogatory about established and respected suppliers ;) 

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3 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Perhaps someone is making a living with some put by for a total shutdown of their business or an extended stay in hospital?
It’s inevitable that once someone does something like this others will copy it too limiting your market, you can patent certain things but decoders are very difficult to protect as multiple cheap copies already have shown.
Producing it on your own workbench and then producing it at any scale is quite different in costs unless you and one robot can reproduce it and send it out. Employ someone to answer the phone and someone to package it while you produce them and you’ll see costs escalate rather fast ;) 

We are all for cheaper sounds but if you’re going to make assertions that someone’s on the fiddle then it would help to have figures to back it up or a proven product available in numbers to prove the point. We’ve seen the ultimate step forward in model railways fall flat on its face with someone at the helm who had the supposed experience in one of the bigger model companies ;) 

Let the product speak before getting too derogatory about established and respected suppliers ;) 

 

All valid points Paul, though you can copyright your sounds provided you recorded them originally. Thing is, we'll never know if they're over priced unless someone releases their costs and margins. I'm still of the view that that they're overpriced for what they are, but that's just my opinion.

 

Oh, and I don't recall asserting that anyone was on the fiddle. My words were 'killing' which to me means making an extremely large profit margin.

Lastly, I didn't realise that healthy debate counted as being derogatory?

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