Blood and custard to maroon transition (corridor stock)

[rogerzilla]

Does anyone have an idea what the transition years were in Scotland, and what year is the latest that a full rake of blood and custard coaches might have been seen?  Most photos of green diesels show them only with maroon coaches, although there is the odd early green diesel, like an EE Type 4, with a train of blood and custard coaches, or a mixture of both liveries.

[Aire Head]

12 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

Does anyone have an idea what the transition years were in Scotland, and what year is the latest that a full rake of blood and custard coaches might have been seen?  Most photos of green diesels show them only with maroon coaches, although there is the odd early green diesel, like an EE Type 4, with a train of blood and custard coaches, or a mixture of both liveries.

 

Maroon was adopted as a livery in 1956 and would have been applied to the majority of coaching stock by the 1960s when diesels began to appear wholesale

[Steamport Southport]

1956 to the very early 1960s. Due to most coaches receiving B/C being mainline stock they were very quickly repainted. Many earlier coaches were withdrawn without being repainted.

 

Loads of information on this website.

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/

 

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

Speed of repainting varied with region or previous company's workshop maintaining the stock. The LMS worked on a six to seven year cycle of overhauls between full repaints so it would just about be be possible for a coach painted LMS Maroon just before the introduction of blood and custard to get to BR Maroon without an intermediate repaint.

 

The Southern Railway worked on a ten-year paint and touch up/re-varnish cycle so some stock built in 1947-8 went straight from Malachite to BR(S) Green. The Southern Region were quite quick on the uptake when they had the opportunity to revert to green livery.

 

Following on from the repaint cycle it could be deduced that the amount of blood and custard would reduce in 1949-56 built stock by about 15-20% per year and older stock by the scrappage rate and about 15% repaint of retained stock. Using these figures blood and custard would be expected to die out progressively up to about 1963, being the minority after about 1959 and fairly rare in regular service by 1961. A rake of mainly blood and custard in its later days would be more likely on a Summer Saturday than at any other time.

[Wickham Green]

14 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

.......... A rake of mainly blood and custard in its later days would be more likely on a Summer Saturday than at any other time.

That's stock which was retained specifically for Summer Saturdays ( and other special traffic ) and would be swept away very quickly by Dr.Beeching.

[rogerzilla]

All really useful, thanks.  Not sure whether to go for all maroon, or a bit of a mixture.

[Wickham Green]

Vive la difference !

[The Johnster]

The transition period means roughly 1958-68, the first of the modernisation plan diesels being delivered in '58;.  Lined maroon for gangwayed stock was introduced in '56, replacing crimson/cream, and unlined maroon for non-gangwayed stock and pool NPCCS, replacing unlined crimson.  Those liveries had been introduced in the May of 1948, and the WR incorrectly applied crimson/cream to auto trailers until 1950, when apparently Mr Riddles saw one at Paddington and wanted to know what his best main line livery was doing on such a lowly vehicle...

 

The varying periods between repaints means that some coaches 'jumped' a livery, so a big 4 liveried coach painted in late '47 might be repainted in 1957 in the 1956 livery without ever carrying the 1949 livery, or a 1949 liveried coach painted in late '55 might survive in that livery until repainted in 1966 corporate blue/grey.    A change occurred in 1958, when all vehicle types previously painted plain maroon began to be painted in lined maroon, and regional autonomy after a management restructure (always a sign of desperation, just before the rebranding) allowed WR sets allocated to named trains to be painted in a chocolate/cream livery (not GW, the lining was different and there was a chocolate band at cantrail level) and the SR to paint all it's passenger rated stock in malachite green.  As well as the odd green passenger carrying visitor, SR NPCCS in green livery could be seen anywhere, including Scotland.

 

So, for the OP's purposes, depending on how late the layout is set in the transition period, there will be a diminishing presence of crimson/cream, crimson, and unlined maroon stock and an increasing one of lined maroon until 1966, when corporate blue begins to appear.  NPCCS is not painted as frequently as passenger coaches, and I remember seeing pre 1956 liveried stock in the early 70s, under a thick covering of crud.  The RB Buffet Cars, Sleeping Cars, and CCT/GUV vans were not introduced until after 1958 and never carried any livery earlier than lined maroon or malachite green, despite the use of crimson/cream for RBs on heritage lines.

 

Named trains got the latest stock and it was renewed as soon as the next type or livery was introduced, so one would expect such a train in Scotland to be entirely lined maroon stock by the start of 1959.  The WR's choc/cream sets were broken up in 1963 and were fairly rapidly repainted into lined maroon; I don't recall seeing any after 1965.  NPCCS went into rapid decline with the introduction of dmus, largely complete by about 1962, and such as was retained for excursion or spare use was the recently overhauled stuff in lined maroon; the KX/Moorgate suburban services were the exception, lasting into the blue period.  

 

Big 4 passenger carrying stock was steadily withdrawn during this period, and replaced with mk1s or mk2s post '66.  GW Colletts were gone by about '62 and Hawksworths by 67; I rode in one from Manchester to Crewe in the summer of '66 (and it bounced around a bit behind a 100mph AL6!).  LNER Thompsons were mostly gone by '66 as well; I rode in one that year Doncaster-Selby behind DP2, steady as a rock in the high 90s...). Gresley Buffets lasted into the 70s in blue/grey, but I think other Gresleys were probably gone by '65 or so.  On the Southern, Maunsell stock seemed to be all gone by '64, the last going with the Kent Coast electrification I think.  Bullieds lasted until the end of steam on the Bournmouths and Exeter services, Warship hauled west of Salisbury.  I don't think much of the LMS Period 1 stock lasted into the 60s at all, though some suburbans may have survived longer in the North West.  Staniers, which were built post nationalisation in large numbers by BR and were common everywhere, survived into blue/grey livery but were probably all gone by '69.  Staniers, Gresleys, and Thompsons were common in Scotland, and other regions' stock might turn up as strengtheners or on excursion work.  The last crimson/cream coach I remember seeing was an LMR mk1 in, I think, 1965.

 

All rules are off for NPCCS except for the WR's few choc/cream mk1 BGs.  These were constantly being borrowed and not returned by Clapham Jc from Old Oak to work with the LSWR route Pullmans, as the SR's Pullman brakes were amongst the oldest stock in the country.  Post '63 you might see one on a parcels train in Scotland, though.

 

The upholstery changed in mk1 coaches in about 1961, along with minor alterations to the window frames.  If you paint your interiors, use dark red for second class and mid grey for first class on coaches built or overhauled before '61 and a green (non smoking IIRC) or red for 2nd and dark blue for 1st after that.  A refurbishment program began in '66 when selected coaches were given 100mph bogies, Commonwealths or B4s, and the interiors refurbished in light formica.  The wooden corridor handrails were replaced by aluminium and flourescent lighting was installed, and aluminium luggage racks similar to those in mk2 stock replaced the previous netting that trainspotters used as hammocks.  Unrefurbished coaches kept their B1s and were kept for excursion and secondary use, restricted to 75mph running.

 

This leads to bogies on mk1s.  The initial standard was the B1, developed from the Stanier bogie.  There was a B2 heavy duty version for catering and sleeping vehicles and B3 for multiple unit use.  The B1 was found to be unsatisfactory at high speed and was found to 'hunt' uncomfortably.  From 1959, new stock for specific use such as catering and sleeping vehicles was given the 'Commonwealth Pattern' bogie, replacing the B2, adding 2 tons per vehicle to overall weight, but they ran well at speed.  The B4 was introduced in '61 on the WR, and became standard from 1964 on new vehicles.  A 1961 Swindon built set for the Bristolian in choc/cream had them.    

 

I do not believe any BGs received B4 bogies before 1966, when some were fitted for use with mk2 stock on the WR, which was not allocated mk2 brake vehicles.  These were in regular workings on the WR and would not have been seen in Scotland.  AFAIK they were at that time the only BGs in blue/grey.