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DVT's and Coaching stock in BR days on the WCML


simonjk
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Hi,

Can anyone help me ?  I am thinking of saving up for the new Hornby DVT so was wondering about the coaches I could run with it. In BR days did DVT's run with a mix of MK2 stock, guessing D/E/F and MK3's on the WCML or was it just MK3's ?  Also if they did would the coaches all be in  Exec/Swallow livery or would they be a mix with some blue/grey ?  I've seen lots of pic's and videos of mixed liveries around this time, but none with DVT's and blue/grey coaches.  

Thanks

Simon  

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Just now, simonjk said:

Hi,

Can anyone help me ?  I am thinking of saving up for the new Hornby DVT so was wondering about the coaches I could run with it. In BR days did DVT's run with a mix of MK2 stock, guessing D/E/F and MK3's on the WCML or was it just MK3's ?  Also if they did would the coaches all be in  Exec/Swallow livery or would they be a mix with some blue/grey ?  I've seen lots of pic's and videos of mixed liveries around this time, but none with DVT's and blue/grey coaches.  

Thanks

Simon  

Mk2F's & Mk3As. Mk2D/E were scarce, if not gone on the WCML by this time.

These used to run in mixed rakes, but were separated a few years earlier to allow the Mk3As to run at 110mph. All rakes had Mk3A buffet cars though.

Most coaches would have carried InterCity livery. Many had swallow lettering but some had the older style. I believe some of the coaching stock still carried blue/grey.

It was common to service an entire set of coaches, so an entire rake of blue/grey would be as plausible as 1 in a rake of swallow coaches.

Motive power would have been class 86/87/90. Class 86/1 & a few 86/2s (about 5?) were cleared for 110mph running as were all 87s & 90s until some 90s were dedicated for freightliner use. These locos were therefore favoured for Mk3A services. Mk2s would have been hauled by class 85 (occasionally) & any class 86/87/90.

The Mk3As were usually prioritised for the longer services but this was not exclusive.

DVTs usually ran at the first class (London) end of the train. They suffered reliability issues (later resolved), which often resulted in the train being turned or the loco hauling the train DVT first.

 

Did you have anything specific in mind? This is exactly the era & line I am most interested in.

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42 minutes ago, simonjk said:

Hi,

Can anyone help me ?  I am thinking of saving up for the new Hornby DVT so was wondering about the coaches I could run with it. In BR days did DVT's run with a mix of MK2 stock, guessing D/E/F and MK3's on the WCML or was it just MK3's ?  Also if they did would the coaches all be in  Exec/Swallow livery or would they be a mix with some blue/grey ?  I've seen lots of pic's and videos of mixed liveries around this time, but none with DVT's and blue/grey coaches.  

Thanks

Simon  

 

Is the "New" Hornby DVT a new re-tooling of the old model (Not the MK4 DVT) or just a re-release of the model that came out some years ago? I have a pre-order on Hornbys buffer beamed HST stock, but that's the only new DVT'ish product from Hornby that I am aware of.

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By the time the DVT entered regular service the rolling stock had largely been segregated into entirely Mk3 rakes and Mk2f with Mk3 restaurant rakes.  The Mk2f rakes were largely concentrated on the Euston-Wolverhampton and Euston-North Wales diagrams, although the odd rake did substitute on Preston and Blackpool services.  The Mk3 stock was largely concentrated on London to Glasgow, Manchester and Liverpool services.  initially the DVTs worked on stock that was in the Executive livery and without central door locking, but by about 1993-4 CDL was fitted to all the stock and stock was predominantly finished in the "Swallow" style.  Mk3 DVTs would have been introduced long after the last front line stock (MK2f, Mk3) had received at least "Executive" livery which was rolled out in 1985-6.

Obviously there are exceptions but the main stock situation by the time of the Mk3 DVT entering squadron service was thus.

 

It looks like the new DVT is a straight re-run of the earlier, and much sought after, first release of the Mk3 DVT in Intercity livery, hopefully with a less nauseating beige flash at the rear.  The buffered HST is a completely different thing, nothing to do with the West Coast DVTs other than they ran as a proof of concept idea on London to Wolverhampton services for a short while in the mid-80s and later with Class 91s on HST rakes to Leeds whilst the first 91s were tested in service.

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One of the more interesting formations during the DVT era was the last hurrah of Motorail.  The converted 961xx GUV vans were equipped as drive-through for end loading and could be shunted onto either end of the train.  With conventional locomotive haulage the vans were shunted on and off the opposite end at terminals.  Once fixed-formation DVT sets arrived another method had to be found.  They were therefore coupled behind the locomotive which was pushing the train meaning the formation was DVT+passenger coaches+loco+vans.  

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2 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

Mk3 DVTs would have been introduced long after the last front line stock (MK2f, Mk3) had received at least "Executive" livery which was rolled out in 1985-6.

The first ones came out around the time we were doing the DC Lines resignalling at the end of 1988. I remember photographing one ex-works at Watford. My staff used to call them 'Wispering Death' as they were quite difficult to pick out when working on-track on busy areas. 

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2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

One of the more interesting formations during the DVT era was the last hurrah of Motorail.  The converted 961xx GUV vans were equipped as drive-through for end loading and could be shunted onto either end of the train.  With conventional locomotive haulage the vans were shunted on and off the opposite end at terminals.  Once fixed-formation DVT sets arrived another method had to be found.  They were therefore coupled behind the locomotive which was pushing the train meaning the formation was DVT+passenger coaches+loco+vans.  

 

From Carlisle in 1992. I'm guessing that the GUVs are being pulled in this picture. :D

 

Interesting working

 

Crewe 95

 

Motorail, Crewe, 12-04-1995

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The first ones came out around the time we were doing the DC Lines resignalling at the end of 1988. I remember photographing one ex-works at Watford. My staff used to call them 'Wispering Death' as they were quite difficult to pick out when working on-track on busy areas. 

I was wracking my brain to try and remember when they first entered service, I seem to recall they had a prolonged entry into service with quite a bit of driver training at first. By 1988-9 though virtually all the front line Mk2f and Mk3 stock would have been refurbished and in the first Inter City executive livery.  I must admit apart from driver training runs I don't recall ever seeing a DVT matched with mixed Exec/blue grey stock.

I wonder if the reason for fitting the DVT with loud chime horns was down to the relatively quiet approach of the DVT?

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3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

It looks like the new DVT is a straight re-run of the earlier, and much sought after, first release of the Mk3 DVT in Intercity livery, hopefully with a less nauseating beige flash at the rear.

Indeed. 

 

Hopefully Hornby will finally get the Intercity Executive Light Grey (beige colour) correct.  Not the cream colour they have used in the past (OT but this will be particularly crucial for the look of the forthcoming APT).

 

Also, on the Mk3 DVT the short line below the gutter at the rear should be WHITE not Executive Light Grey.

 

Previously covered in DVT livery thread:

 

 

 

 

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I’ve got some video I shot when the DVTs were being used for driver training, they used to run up to Bletchley, turn round and head back south.

 

These trains were formed of a class 86/87/90 with one or two DVTs either end and were a daily sight for a few months prior to the DVTs entering traffic.

 

Happy memories :)

 

 

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2 hours ago, montyburns56 said:

I'm guessing that the GUVs are being pulled in this picture.

Yes of course they are hence your emoji.  The red tail lamp (end-of-train marker in some traditions) confirms this.  

 

One of the beauties of the TDM system which the DVTs employed to control remote locomotives was that, provided the entire train was wired, the loco could be anywhere in the train.  And as those images prove it was definitely not at the back all the time even when pushing most of the train!

 

The SR 27-way control system offered the same flexibility though I don't believe any BG vans were through-wired for 27-way push-pull operation.  But locos appeared mid-train by design or on an ad-hoc basis at times such as the peak-hour Waterloo - Southampton / Salisbury combined workings formed Vep / TC / class 33.  The 33 sometimes turned up in the middle but in any event was controlled from the leading EMU cab.  

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1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

Yes of course they are hence your emoji.  The red tail lamp (end-of-train marker in some traditions) confirms this. 

 

The SR 27-way control system offered the same flexibility though I don't believe any BG vans were through-wired for 27-way push-pull operation.  But locos appeared mid-train by design or on an ad-hoc basis at times such as the peak-hour Waterloo - Southampton / Salisbury combined workings formed Vep / TC / class 33.  The 33 sometimes turned up in the middle but in any event was controlled from the leading EMU cab.  

 

Six 6 BG were fitted with SR 27 way control cables - 80915, 80922, 80925, 80942 and 80951, classed as 499 TLVs 68201-68206. They ended up as 975610-975615

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3 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I wonder if the reason for fitting the DVT with loud chime horns was down to the relatively quiet approach of the DVT?

I don't know what they had when they arrived. The quiet approach was raised by my H&S Reps at a depot meeting about a week after test running started. That got passed up the chain to my boss to be raised at a high level meeting.

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7 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I don't know what they had when they arrived. The quiet approach was raised by my H&S Reps at a depot meeting about a week after test running started. That got passed up the chain to my boss to be raised at a high level meeting.

That sounds to me like an imaginary problem which arose from them being something "new". The lead vehicle in a DVT lead formation would have been noisier on the track than the lead vehicle of a Class 317 running on the same lines, and at speed there would have been no noise difference on approach between a DVT leading and any Class 86-90 leading.

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12 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

Six 6 BG were fitted with SR 27 way control cables - 80915, 80922, 80925, 80942 and 80951, classed as 499 TLVs 68201-68206. They ended up as 975610-975615

I had momentarily overlooked the TLV (Trailer Luggage Vans) series.  They were nominally for boat train use coupled inside an MLV and ahead of Cep units though if that made the train up to 14 vehicles it was restricted as to where it could be platformed.  Only 2 and 8 at Victoria IIRC.  I have always thought of those vans as electric stock though they were nothing more than BGs with 27-way wiring.  

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16 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

I was wracking my brain to try and remember when they first entered service, I seem to recall they had a prolonged entry into service with quite a bit of driver training at first. By 1988-9 though virtually all the front line Mk2f and Mk3 stock would have been refurbished and in the first Inter City executive livery.  I must admit apart from driver training runs I don't recall ever seeing a DVT matched with mixed Exec/blue grey stock.

A quick look through my photo index shows that I took a picture of the 'Buffered HST' at Euston stop blocks in March 1988.

My first picture of a Class 82 DVT was ex-works 82102 at Derby station in November 1988. The livery was InterCity Swallow.

8822_13.jpg.00407d86fd054c18664bf7cfce9152d5.jpg

 

Later on the same film either late November or first week of December 82102 was doing a crossing move from the Up HL Arrival to the Down Slow at Wembley Central. Unusually for a DVT it is pointing north.  Immediately behind the DVT is a Mk2 coach then a very shiny Class 90, followed by some more  passenger stock. It looks as if this was either a test run or driver training.

8822_21.jpg.69b4edd6ee732ad96502d01d10b42dc1.jpg

 

I believe that testing and training continued throughout 1989, sometimes with a DVT at each end, then coaches and an 86 or 90 in the middle of the coaching stock. There are also pictures around with blue and grey stock in the test trains.

 

.

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14 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

That sounds to me like an imaginary problem which arose from them being something "new". The lead vehicle in a DVT lead formation would have been noisier on the track than the lead vehicle of a Class 317 running on the same lines, and at speed there would have been no noise difference on approach between a DVT leading and any Class 86-90 leading.

We are talking a different time and culture to now. In those days a lot of our outdoor work was done what would now be called Red Zone. Very few areas were prohibited when open. Many of our worksites you are not even allowed to access now without a possession let alone actually work at them. For my part I was on track about three or four days a week then.

 

Every type of loco has a signature in terms of visual impact, noise and even electrical interference. Put a scope on an unscreened lineside cable and in those days I would tell you what class was on the approaching train without being able to see it. Even some control systems used on diesels can cause an electrical 'noise' when you are close up.

 

My own first impression with the DVT was that the front end tended to merge with the background  much more than an 86 or 317. I don't know what it was, maybe the lack of contrast between the yellow panel which was quite small against the white at the sides. The most striking thing at short range was actually the black band where the headlights are mounted. 

My perception when it came to noise the problem with the DVT was not so much at high speed but low speed starting away or crossing through a 20mph connection. The first thing you heard in the latter case was flange squeal from the leading bogie as it hit the curve of the point blade.

When you are on track every day you become tuned to the background and the slightest changes can tell you what is going on. Some types of train will make the rails start to give off distinct noises when they are perhaps up to a mile away. A lot of this will depend on the mounting of different components and their physical condition, e.g amount of wear. A new DVT with its small amount of unsprung weight was a totally different animal to an 86/0. People have written learned papers and whole books on the subject of wheel generated vibration, including how it can be monitored to check the structural integrity of locomotives or rolling stock. A cousin of mine spent 20 years or more researching noise and vibration propogation in railway vehicles and infrastructure including mitigating its effect on neighbouring properties.

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Agree with the above.  

 

In the 1980s it was still possible to see station staff crossing the tracks to swap between platforms, hopping down to retrieve lost items or maintenance staff checking the security of bolts, clips and other items between trains.  It was sometimes the case that passengers with heavier luggage would be directed to use the platform-end barrow crossing at stations without lifts.  

 

Not now.  No matter what colour you paint the front of a train nor what sound it makes venturing onto a "live" track is a very big no-no without the relevant safety certification, a critical need and the knowledge of the signaller concerned.  And a passenger strolling down the platform ramp would (should) be spotted by staff / CCTV and appropriate action taken.  Not a cheery "just watch for trains, mate".

 

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The point was that a 317 or a 321 is quieter still on approach, and no less lethal if struck by one. It sounds like an unsafe method of working (eg relying on hearing an approaching train vs looking out for one) had become the norm and the arrival of the DVT was to somehow change that perception, probably for the better in terms of track worker safety. Now that we have black/very dark coloured front ends (!!) on some Class 350's and most TPE stock its indicative of a different time when a reduction in the amount of front end yellow to a still fairly substantial amount as found on a DVT caused consternation back then.

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I would disagree that a 317 or 321 was quieter than a DVT leading at low speed. The noisy bit of a 321 lay between 20 and 60 metres from the front depending on which way round it was whereas with a 90 pushing an express it was about 230 - 250metres.  Again the 321 was far less conspicuous at distance that a 317 to my mind. 

 

As Gwiwer said it was a different railway then. I often carried out inspections alone on lines up to 110mph. You didn't just rely on hearing, one eye for your life and the other for the job was the rule even when you had a lookout. My point about sounds is that I always ensured I had enough visibility for the approaching speeds to be safe before going near the line but there were numerous places where I could tell there was a train coming without actually seeing it.

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On 17/01/2020 at 12:13, Gwiwer said:

One of the more interesting formations during the DVT era was the last hurrah of Motorail.  The converted 961xx GUV vans were equipped as drive-through for end loading and could be shunted onto either end of the train.  With conventional locomotive haulage the vans were shunted on and off the opposite end at terminals.  Once fixed-formation DVT sets arrived another method had to be found.  They were therefore coupled behind the locomotive which was pushing the train meaning the formation was DVT+passenger coaches+loco+vans.  

 

For the sake of clarity, the alternative method did not occur immediately.  At the time that DVTs became the norm there were two remaining daytime motorail trains, one to Edinburgh/Inverness and one to Carlisle, the Carlisle train used a DVT set, so that meant the northbound formation was Loco - motorail  - coaches - DVT , southbound was Loco - DVT - coaches - motorail. 

 

It took 1-2 years for them to implement their solution which looked as simple as putting the vans on the rear of the entire trainset (behind DVT northbound and loco southbound) but required the entire loading/unloading and shunting procedure to change at either end.

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On 17/01/2020 at 16:02, simonjk said:

Hi,

Can anyone help me ?  I am thinking of saving up for the new Hornby DVT so was wondering about the coaches I could run with it. In BR days did DVT's run with a mix of MK2 stock, guessing D/E/F and MK3's on the WCML or was it just MK3's ?  Also if they did would the coaches all be in  Exec/Swallow livery or would they be a mix with some blue/grey ?  I've seen lots of pic's and videos of mixed liveries around this time, but none with DVT's and blue/grey coaches.  

Thanks

Simon  

Hi Simon,

 

The DVT appeared at the time of the change in Intercity livery from the use of executive grey to falcon grey so both these liveries and executive livery would all be seen the Eu-Brum - Wols services was the first to go over to DVT operation.

 

Regarding DVT's and B/G only test  / training trains would give this combination.

 

http://www.traintesting.com/MK3_DVT.htm

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/8046699971

 

 

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