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Plating Over of GWR Tank Engine Cab Porthole Windows


GWR57xx
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I tried to find some info on this last night but no real joy.

 

The only thing I found was in "Stars, Castles and Kings" by Jackson where in the context of them being plated over on 4020 he describes them as, "small forward-facing windows that allowed crews to peer over the firebox". The implication being that prior to plating over there was some perceived need to be able to see the top of the firebox?

 

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Still a mystery.  One’s view ahead is even more obscured by the firebox and boiler than it is from the ‘main’ windows, and drivers spent a lot of time Casey Jonesing it out ft the side of the cab.  The days when boilers were small enough to see over the top of went with the Iron Dukes in the 1850s.  

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A further aspect is whether they were actually "plated over" or an invisible fix, which is relevant to modellers 

 

Of the small prairies, 4559 had proud plates with rivets or bolt heads showing but it was rare. I have seen one close up of 4565 where you can just discern the outline of a ring where a perfectly fitting disc was (presumably) welded into the hole.

 

Most photos, even in good light, show no trace of the original portholes whatsoever and I have heard the suggestion the cab sheet was sometimes replaced.

 

Again seems a lot of effort!

 

I cant remember if it is Pendennis or Caerphilly but one of the early castles now has a late style cab with the smaller main windows, so obviously extensive repairs did sometimes happen although could have been in preservation.

Edited by Hal Nail
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The welded up portholes are still clearly visible on 9017. Presumably they were blocked when the cab was still on 3258*.

With so many photos of 9017 about it should be possible to get a feel for what percentage of photos they are actually visible in.

 

porthole.jpg

 

*corrected, thanks for headsup Ms Prism

Edited by JimC
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1 hour ago, JimC said:

The welded up portholes are still clearly visible on 9017. Presumably they were blocked when the cab was still on 3282.

 

Accounts differ as to which Duke(s) were involved for 3217/9017:

3258, according to John Daniel; or

3282, according to the Bluebell Railway

 

For some Dukedogs, more than one set of upper parts may have been involved.

 

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9 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

A further aspect is whether they were actually "plated over" or an invisible fix, which is relevant to modellers 

 

Of the small prairies, 4559 had proud plates with rivets or bolt heads showing but it was rare. I have seen one close up of 4565 where you can just discern the outline of a ring where a perfectly fitting disc was (presumably) welded into the hole.

 

Most photos, even in good light, show no trace of the original portholes whatsoever and I have heard the suggestion the cab sheet was sometimes replaced.

 

Again seems a lot of effort!

 

I cant remember if it is Pendennis or Caerphilly but one of the early castles now has a late style cab with the smaller main windows, so obviously extensive repairs did sometimes happen although could have been in preservation.

 

 

If Loco overhauls are anything like ship refits, then cab sheeting could be vulnerable and get damaged and it would be quicker and cheaper to knock up a damaged panel than try straightening a bent one. We used to replace damaged vent, rather than muck about trying to get it straightened.

 

 

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Another similar question that I have not found an explanation for: around the same time that porthole windows were plated over or removed (approx 1928-1932?), sliding cab side shutters were added. I haven't seen any photos of these shutters in the closed position, and wonder what their purpose was. The two mods were apparently not made at the same overhauls - there are photos of engines with both portholes and shutters and also with plated over portholes but no shutters. Anyone?

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3 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Similar question that might never get an answer. GWR Kings as built had Collet taper buffers. These were replaced sometime around Nationalisation, or maybe early 50's. Why?

Some on the 'Kings' were replaced by parallel style buffer housingss a lot later than 'the early 1950s'

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9 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

. I haven't seen any photos of these shutters in the closed position, and wonder what their purpose was.

Cab shutters were from the early 30s I think. My understanding is that the idea came from absorbed welsh locomotives. One might speculate that they were mostly in use when the weather was so vile no sensible person would be out with a camera... If you do a major web search for b/w photos of GWR locomotives you'll see the odd one shut, but you're right, they're amazingly rare. 

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10 hours ago, rodent279 said:

Similar question that might never get an answer. GWR Kings as built had Collet taper buffers. These were replaced sometime around Nationalisation, or maybe early 50's. Why?

Stock levels at stores at the time of overhaul?

 

9 hours ago, GWR57xx said:

I haven't seen any photos of these shutters in the closed position, and wonder what their purpose was.

Sliding cab shutters on tank locos were based on South Wales practice as JimC suggests.  Taff Vale and Rhymney men were used to them and complained that the cabs were draughty in cross winds, particularly on the 56xx they were now using.  A look at some of the Dowlais workings will illustrate why crosswinds on slow moving or stationary locos were an issue; it's a bit bleak up there!  Cabs are very warm when the fire doors are open but they must be shut if the loco is to raise pressure, so an adjustable shutter is a very good idea.  They were retrofitted to all GW tank classes except the half cabs, but are less obvious on 0-4-2 and 0-6-0 types because they were fitted inside the cab side sheet.  This makes them much easier to model and several of my panniers have them; they slid back to just before the cab door gap.  

 

It is probable that they are rare in photos partly because they would normally, as Jim says, be used in inclement weather when there are fewer photographers about, but also because they were sliding shutters and steam loco cabs are very dirty and gritty places; small coal must have jammed them with some frequency, especially the inside mounted ones.

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Stock levels at stores at the time of overhaul?

Plausible. Most GW locos built after the Kings seem to have had parallel buffers, so some deliberate design change occurred. Maybe it was a simpler casting than the taper form?

Do buffers wear out, and require replacement? If so, why can't the heads and innards be replaced, and the casing retained?

From what I can tell, the restored KE1 seems to have taper buffers, presumably replicas.

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There was a design change with the parallel buffers as they incorporated steps on the tops.  In the light of this I would expect the earlier design to be replaced over time by the later as the locos went through works.  Kings racked up the mileage quickly and were thus more frequently overhauled and, being high profile, would have had the newest equipment available at each overhaul.  From a stores point of view, stock levels of the older buffers will diminish over time and those that are left will be used on older, less 'important' locos.

 

That's the theory, and it may even have some basis in practice!

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15 hours ago, rodent279 said:

 If so, why can't the heads and innards be replaced, and the casing retained?

It seems to me problems were more likely to be the springs rather than the casings. If the springs in the taper buffers were more liable to failure then that would be a motivation for a replacement program. But this is 100% pure speculation.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

It seems to me problems were more likely to be the springs rather than the casings. If the springs in the taper buffers were more liable to failure then that would be a motivation for a replacement program. But this is 100% pure speculation.

But plausible. The tapered body buffers, including the Dean period ones, used a volute spring, which is wound from flat strip and is, broadly flowerpot shaped, hence the shape of the casing. The parallel buffers used a normal coil spring, wound from round (or, sometimes, square section wire). 

However, if spring breakage was an issue, you would expect it to affect the tenders much more than the locomotives for obvious reasons. An alternative possibility was breakage of the casings themselves. I don't know how the Great Western ones behaved in service, but there is a note in one of E S Cox's books that one of the designs used by the LNWR was seriously vulnerable to breakage, and certainly there are examples of ex-LNWR locomotives that were refitted with parallel buffers by the LMS. I have a suspicion as well that the parallel buffers used by the LMS, BR and, potentially, the GWR were bought in items manufactured by Turton & Platt of Sheffield. 

 

Jim 

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