Forest of Dean question?

[Guest WM183]

That 7mm bug bit hard with the construction of just a wagon kit.  My favourite parts of the hobby, by far, is building wagons and structures, detailing scenes, and things like working signals. I suppose, given this, that 7mm is a good choice; it's pricier per kit, of course, but I need less of them! However, it's expensive enough that I want to be sure of what I want before I just "Buy stuff". I love tank locomotives, particularly the various GWR Pannier types, and while I prefer goods workings, I'd like to be able to have a coach or two also. This, coupled with my limited space, has made me look into something branchliney in the Forest of Dean.

 

I like the 4 wheel coaches a lot more than the more modern ones, but I am unsure if they went out of use before the more modern 57xx/8750 and 64xx panniers were in use? I ask because getting a working loco is nice and an RTR model helps; might the 4 wheel GWR coaches (which are also a LOT less expensive in 7mm than bogie stock, with the kits from Slater's) rub shoulders with a 57xx, even though likely worked by an older engine like a 2721 or 1850?

I guess... could i feasibly have 57xx and 64xx alongside 4 wheel coaches on a line (real or fictional) somewhere in the Forest of Dean?

 

[Adrian Stevenson]

I would go with a 58xx coming up from Dapol with a set of Slaters carriages. (I am   )

[Hal Nail]

This sort of question invariably get lots of advice what you could do instead and not many actual answers to the question - which I'm about to now do as well! For what its worth, I have sold a B set (which I was intending to cut and shut but got cold feet) and an auto coach (came with a loco I was after) for a fraction more than I paid for them, so if you buy carefully, good quality stuff retains its value if you change your mind later. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Hal Nail

[DCB]

Most of the forest lines were Severn and Wye jointly run by GW and Midland, later GW and LMS but with GWR motive power, The 2021 class were the mainstay of fSevern and Wye power during GW days and up to 1950.  They are smaller locos than the 57XX, similar wheelbase to a 64XX and 4ft 1 " wheels instead of 4ft 7", some with saddle tanks, some pannier, some with open cabs, many with 57XX type cabs.    Annoyingly thery aren't available RTR even in 00 and in kit form usually come as saddle tanks.  Passenger trains largely finished in the 1920s apart from Auto trains.  16XX and 57XX appeared in the 1950s and Class 14 in the 1960s.    They did try a 56XX once,. etc If you like panniers and long coal trains in beautiful scenery the forest is the place, but 57XX,  came 10 to 30 years after 4 wheel coaches coaches were withdrawn.   Realistically RTR you're stuck with a 14XX and an Autocoach even in 00 though I think Gloucester used a 54XX on Cinderford Autos and a by the 1960s Gloucester had a 64XX  allocated which did the farewell railtours.

There were lines from Monmouth down the Wye Valley which may be more suitable for your needs but again 57XX were really only introduced after most four wheel coaches were withdrawn.  

[Western Star]

Choosing to build a model of a railway in the Forest of Dean is a smooth idea...  lots of people are interested in the FoD and many of those build layouts which are set in the forest - thereby hangs your problem, lots and lots of people who have knowledge of what is thought to be correct.  You mention using 5700 and 6400 classes... the earliest of those locos had not reached the forest when the passenger service from Lydney to Cinderford, to Lydbrook and to Coleford was withdrawn hence you may need to think about the Forest of Dean Branch from Bullo to Cinderford via Bilson.  Passenger services to Cinderford lasted to late in the steam era although mostly run with GWR autocoaches.

 

Try to find copies of books about the Severn & Wye Railway and about the Forest of Dean Railway published by Wild Swan and Lightmoor Press (see web site), there are seven volumes so far covering those lines.  Other sources of information which can help you are listed on the Lightmoor Press web site, look for books of photos by Ben Ashworth and this volume of colour photos from 1950s and 1960s

Edited January 17, 2020 by Western Star

[The Bigbee Line]

You can choose a prototype, with a head full ideas, the suffer endless frustration when you look,more closely...

 

Sometimes it is better to take a more light hearted approach.

 

We visited the Forest of Dean Railway on a drizzly day and had a great time.  We paid extra for the brake van ride and took some good pictures of the track alignment and formations.  With my scant knowledge I would start with a pannier in BR early black (that's the extent of my pannier know how), some wagons and a couple of very decrepit 4 wheelers for the morning and evening 'workmans' train.

 

I will look out my pictures..

[Hal Nail]

This was somewhere near the top end of the line as I recall.

 

[Happy Hippo]

In one of my books on S Wales, there is a picture of a later version of a pannier pulling a 'paddy train'. In this case the 'coaches' were 4 wheelers: They look like standard box vans with the doors removed and foot steps added. Not 4 wheel coaches, but it is an option.  Failing that either use rule one or perhaps have a junction with a Light Railway that uses 4 wheel coaches........ Then have a loco failure so the LR has to hire in a loco from the GWR.

[F-UnitMad]

42 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

This was somewhere near the top end of the line as I recall.

 

That looks like it's near Traveller's Rest, north of Parkend.

 

Traveller's Rest isn't a place you'll find on any FoD map; there was a Pub of that name near the level crossing at Fancy Road, between Parkend & Coleford Junction. The signal box at the crossing was named Traveller's Rest Crossing, & despite the demolition of it & closure of the pub decades ago, locals still know that small area as Travellers Rest.

[F-UnitMad]

Not easy to find in the New RMweb index, but there is a Special Interests Section for the railways of Gloucestershire & the Forest of Dean, if you've not seen it before...

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/188-the-railways-of-gloucestershire-and-the-forest-of-dean/

[Guest WM183]

Thanks for the replies, folks. Somehow I'd missed the FoD subforum, but between that and this thread, perhaps I should stick with something in the Welsh Valleys anyway; the 4 wheel coaches there saw use as miner's trains into the early BR period, I think. Perhaps 4mm is better for me, I dunno. Hard choice, this. Given all things equal, I'd choose 7mm in a heartbeat; I love the wagon kits and detail possible. I'll carry on with my 56xx project and see how that goes.

Edited January 18, 2020 by WM183

[Guest WM183]

Curiosity - if i pushed this forward to pre grouping, say 1915-1920, what sorts of engines would have run in the Forest? I am guessing 44xx/45xx and the smaller saddle/pannier tanks like 2021s?

[brossard]

Whatever you choose to do (you know you want to do 7mm ), have a look at the availability of stock, RTR and kit.  It is frustrating when the rolling stock you need isn't available.  If you go pre grouping, I suspect that kit building (wagons, coaches and locos) will be necessary.

 

As Ernie says, a light hearted approach might be less fraught.  I'm doing 1962ish LNER/LMS but my other two partners in crime (and that's it for 0 gauge people in all the Montreal area) do GWR and pre group North British.  Therefore I can't get too serious about region and era.

 

John

[Guest WM183]

Oh, I don't mind building. I think I do wish to go 7mm. The size of 7mm makes pre-grouping more appealing, in fact, in particular as I'd love to use some of those little coaches Slaters' makes. This likely means lots of scratchbuilding, and that is ok with me too! So yes; I've basically narrowed it down to LMS / BR(M) in 1953 or so, or something pre rural and pre-groupingish. Freight ops are my favorite though, so even more modern is fine; the difference between a 14' wagon or a 17' wagon isn't much. As I wish to keep "sunk" expenses to a minimum (and as I have sold one of the brass engines I had for sale, freeing up some money for a loco or kit) I'd like to make sure what I want is what I want.

[Guest WM183]

Pannier tanks got all over the system in BR days though I guess? Pfft.

[brossard]

I agree about goods working, it is by far the most interesting aspect of running a layout.  Passenger workings consist of pulling in to the station, running the loco round (or not) and pulling out again.

 

You could always go for purely industrial like this:

 

I found the layout inspiring and it fits in a small space.

 

John

 

[Baggies1961]

There is a great book not long out from Neil Parkhouse all pictures in colour covering the F of D in detail, especially motive power but maybe later than your time frame.

[F-UnitMad]

58 minutes ago, brossard said:

As Ernie says, a light hearted approach might be less fraught.

I'd go with that too. I don't think we have a Forest of Dean Rivet Police around here, so apply Rule 1.

For what it's worth there are a few nice layouts around that claim to be Welsh Valley lines - to my mind they could just as easily be F-o-D lines.

Anyway, if the modern-day DFR can run Class 73 ED's, and an EWS-livery Class 31, I for one am not going to get all Nerdy-Anorak if someone wants to run some 4-wheel coaches on their layout....

 

[brossard]

Rule 1 is a handy thing.

 

John

[F-UnitMad]

Just now, brossard said:

Rule 1 is a handy thing.

 

John

Isn't it just?!

[Marshall5]

Not the Forest of Dean but 2 branches which you might want to consider are the Tanat Valley and Culm Valley (Hemyock).  The Tanat Valley used 4 wheelers with tiny locos as late as the 1940's so you could, accurately run a Dapol or kitbuilt 58xx with a couple of Slater's G.W. 4w carriages.  Both branches also ran mixed trains which would add operating interest.  Hope this helps.

Ray.

[Western Star]

1 hour ago, WM183 said:

Curiosity - if i pushed this forward to pre grouping, say 1915-1920, what sorts of engines would have run in the Forest? I am guessing 44xx/45xx and the smaller saddle/pannier tanks like 2021s?

In that period you can have 2021 locos for both passenger and goods services.  The Slater's kits for GWR 4-wheel carriages are a good starting point...  stick with the S9 and T34, do not use the U4 or the V5.  Given that the Severn & Wye became a joint line under GWR and MR control then Slater's comes to the rescue for MR opens and covered wagons whilst Minerva is a useful source for GWR wagons.  If you choose your location to be somewhere between Lydney and Speech House Road then Slater's can provide four private owner liveries whilst POW Sides can offer something like ten additional wagon liveries,

 

Try to read Severn & Wye by Karau and Pope (Wild Swan for volumes 1, 2 and 3, Lightmoor Press for volumes 4 and 5)  plenty of photos of trains in service in the pre-group period.

[Guest WM183]

Ok, thanks folks! By the way, how are the Karau and Pope "The Forest of Dean Branch" vols 1 and 2? And the Private Owners of FOD by Pope? 

Also, some lines were joint GWR and MR? I didnt know that. Were there locations where wagons were interchanged then?

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, WM183 said:

Also, some lines were joint GWR and MR? I didnt know that. Were there locations where wagons were interchanged then?

More than you ever wanted to know about the Severn & Wye Joint Railway...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_and_Wye_Railway

 

Enjoy!! 

[Western Star]

Just you wait for S&W volume 6 young Jordan, more than you ever to know about how the railway was worked (although possibly a bit thin on the diseasel era).