Pullman train formations - early 1960s

[Staffordshire]

 

     Hi, 

 

        I realise that this information may have been asked for in other topics, but I am getting totally confused whilst attempting research

on the following subject ....

 

      What I am hoping to find ...

 

       Accurate (with dates) Pullman car formation for the following two trains . (Any date of running between 1959 and 1965)

 

         *  Bournemouth Belle

 

         *  Tees Tyne Pullman 

 

  If successful with the above question, the second part is are the 'Pullman' cars identified above, available (currently or previously) from Hornby, etc

 

      Obviously,  I am happy to re-number and rename any vehicles 

 

   Thus if successful I will know exact formations and what Pullman cars are available etc to create these two trains.

 

  I would really appreciate all help and accurate information.

 

 Many thanks, Ian

[scottystitch]

Does this help with the Bournemouth Belle:

 

https://www.kentrail.org.uk/bournemouth_belle.htm

 

This might also be of interest. There is a shot of the green BR MK1 BG

 

 

Best

 

Scott

Edited January 21, 2020 by scottystitch

[jessy1692]

Might be a little out of time frame but EM Gauge 70s has a good list on the mk1 pullmans, plus an example formation of the TT pullman from 1970

http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/proto_pullman.html

Hope this helps

James

[slilley]

This might help a bit with the Tees Tyne Pullman early 1960s, as page 51 has a picture of much of the formation.

 

https://docplayer.net/49618148-January-february-2017-edition-no-34.html

[Gibbo675]

Hi Ian,

 

Having looked into my Pullman Profile No.2 by Anthony Ford I have found the following:

 

Bounrnemouth Belle.

1. 1961,  62, 106, 61, 107, 6, 58, Onyx, Sappho, Rosemary, Evadne, 97, 63.
2. 1964,  63, 76, Loraine, Shelia, Octavia, Lucille, 60, 64, 303, 65.

Tyne Tees'

1.  1957,  209,58, Lucille, Belinda, 72, Onyx, 32, 248.

To find out what was what from the lists above have a look through this link:

 

http://www.britishrailways.info/pullman_cars.htm

 

Gibbo.

[Ken.W]

Hi Ian,

 

Regarding the Tees-Tyne Pullman,

Note that the link above giving the 1970 formation is after withdrawl of the Second class Pullmans and their replacement by ordinary Second class stock, so not accurate for your period.

 

Your period's complicated by, to start with the train was formed of 1928 K-type cars, but in 60/61 these were replaced by the new Mk1 Pullman cars apart from the Brakes for which the 1928 cars were retained.

Also, throughout your period, the formation included a Bar car, 'The Hadrian Bar'.

 

I've also been unable to find accurate information on the actual vehicles in the formation at any one time, they do seem to vary a bit, but the formations do seem to be available;

 

'50s; BSP; KS; PF; KBarS; KF; PF; KS; BSP (all '28 K type)

'63;  BSP; PF(FX); KS(FO); KF; KBarS; KF; PF; KS; BSP (Mk1s except BSPs '28 K type)

 

(I've used above, F-First, S-Second, B-Brake, K-Kitchen, P-Parlour, Bar- 'The Hadrian Bar', FX Friday Excepted, FO Friday only)

Around the end of your period the Brakes were replaced by maroon Mk1 BGs

 

For suitable models, Hornby do the '28 K type cars, except for the Hadrian Bar. They did produce a bar car but it's not correct for the Hadrian. Bachmann do all the Mk1 types.

[Ken.W]

5 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Tyne Tees'

 

 

Is a TV station

[Staffordshire]

   Thanks for all the help so far, I am glad I am not the only person who found this complicated.

 

   All the information is excellent, thank you.   More wanted.

 

  Cheers.

[Steamport Southport]

Pullmans? Look here. Tons of information on them, not just related to the SR ones.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/home.html

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/pull_1.html

 

http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/index.html

 

 

 

Jason

[robertcwp]

Summer 1963 Tees-Tyne Pullman:

 

TTP_1963_Summer by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Would have been 1960 Metro-Cammell cars apart from the brakes.

[Paul80]

Thats a lot of Kitchen Cars, 2 FK, 2 SK only 2 FP and no SP, why no SP when they had 2 SK, or did the Kitchen Cars also include seating ?

 

Just wondering not arguing 

[robertcwp]

20 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Thats a lot of Kitchen Cars, 2 FK, 2 SK only 2 FP and no SP, why no SP when they had 2 SK, or did the Kitchen Cars also include seating ?

 

Just wondering not arguing 

As shown in the carriage working, 30 seats in a kitchen second. 

[Paul80]

Thanks.

 

I suppose they wouldn't be using all the kitchens then, just the seating, did they have more kitchen cars than parlour cars or was there other reasons to use a Kitchen car just for seating rather than use a Parlour?

[stovepipe]

One of the PSKs is FO, though it does seem a little strange that it is to be marshalled between the PFK and the PFP. I wonder if it actually was in practice.

 

[Ken.W]

59 minutes ago, Paul80 said:

Thanks.

 

I suppose they wouldn't be using all the kitchens then, just the seating, did they have more kitchen cars than parlour cars or was there other reasons to use a Kitchen car just for seating rather than use a Parlour?

 

Remember though, on the Pullmans dinning was served at seat to all passengers, so more kitchens needed to cope, and spaced out so not too far to carry meals though the train. On ordinary trains passengers went to the restaurant car while dinning.

Also, the kitchens were quite small. As above, 30 seats in a Pullman kitchen second despite their wider seat spacing, whereas ordinary kitchen cars only had about 18 to 24 seats.

 

44 minutes ago, stovepipe said:

One of the PSKs is FO, though it does seem a little strange that it is to be marshalled between the PFK and the PFP. I wonder if it actually was in practice.

 

But the PF (B) is FX, so the extra KS (C) is between the BPS (A) and a KF (D)

I expect that would have been the practice, as that's a copy of the actual rostered formation in the Carriage Working Book, and they're lettered for reservations in that order.

Presumably more seating was needed on a Friday, so with it an extra kitchen, but without increasing the train load so as not to affect timings.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Ken.W

[stovepipe]

2 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

 

But the PF (B) is FX, so the extra KS (C) is between the BPS (A) and a KF (D)

I expect that would have been the practice, as that's a copy of the actual rostered formation in the Carriage Working Book, and they're lettered for reservations in that order.

Presumably more seating was needed on a Friday, so with it an extra kitchen, but without increasing the train load so as not to affect timings.

 

Ah yes, so it is, not sure how I missed that!

[robertcwp]

There were a lot more kitchen cars than parlour cars in the 1960 Pullman Car stock built for the East Coast. If I recall correctly there were seven parlour seconds and fifteen kitchen seconds. However, the 1960 cars were built to run with an existing (or converted) brake parlour second at each end of the sets and there would have been 30 seats in each of those. 

[Staffordshire]

On 21/01/2020 at 20:48, Gibbo675 said:

Hi Ian,

 

Having looked into my Pullman Profile No.2 by Anthony Ford I have found the following:

 

Bounrnemouth Belle.

1. 1961,  62, 106, 61, 107, 6, 58, Onyx, Sappho, Rosemary, Evadne, 97, 63.
2. 1964,  63, 76, Loraine, Shelia, Octavia, Lucille, 60, 64, 303, 65.

Tyne Tees'

1.  1957,  209,58, Lucille, Belinda, 72, Onyx, 32, 248.

To find out what was what from the lists above have a look through this link:

 

http://www.britishrailways.info/pullman_cars.htm

 

Gibbo.

 

     Sorry it's an old question, but I do not believe the website ...www.britishrailways.info/pullman cars.htm    is now available ?? 

 

   Anybody know if it's changed address or where the information is now available ?? 

 

    Thanks, Ian 

[keefer]

Website is available via The Wayback Machine but don't know if all pages work:

https://web.archive.org/web/20190619213641/http://www.britishrailways.info/pullman_cars.htm

[Staffordshire]

Keefer, thank you very much .....

 

[ikcdab]

Just to pick this one up again..

are we saying that a kitchen could serve the diners in its own vehicle and the one in the adjacent parlour car?

And i assume that a "third class kitchen" was not a kitchen of a more lowly standard, but a normal kitchen in which its seating is for third class passengers?

Edited March 30 by ikcdab

[bécasse]

Yes, a Pullman kitchen served passengers in the same car and in an adjacent car, and yes, Pullman kitchens all provided similar facilities (which could be route specific) so a Third/Second Class kitchen car merely provided Third/Second Class (as opposed to First Class) seating. There were, of course, variations over time as to how fuel for cooking was provided.

[ikcdab]

16 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Yes, a Pullman kitchen served passengers in the same car and in an adjacent car, and yes, Pullman kitchens all provided similar facilities (which could be route specific) so a Third/Second Class kitchen car merely provided Third/Second Class (as opposed to First Class) seating. There were, of course, variations over time as to how fuel for cooking was provided.

Ok thanks. That means that in my train of 8, I have too many parlours and not enough kitchens! I need to sell a parlour and swap for a kitchen then.

Thanks

 

[bécasse]

13 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Ok thanks. That means that in my train of 8, I have too many parlours and not enough kitchens! I need to sell a parlour and swap for a kitchen then.

 

Perhaps not, although I travelled on the Bournemouth Belle several times (in 2nd class) and the Harrogate Sunday Pullman once (in 1st) I can't remember the precise formation of either now other than the fact that kitchens definitely serviced more than the passengers in that car. It isn't impossible that kitchens served more than one adjacent car, particularly in 1st class where there were less passengers per car. Try looking at historical photos of Pullman trains, although they rarely enable one to see much of the detailed makeup of the rake, the kitchen cars do tend to stand out particularly in views where the car roofs are visible as the ventilator layout was different.

[ikcdab]

thanks.  i had not really given much thought to the fact that a train might have had several kitchens and hence several sets of cooking staff.  No wonder the fares were so high.

 

New question, when did roof boards stop being carried? Their use looks intermittent anyway?