Poor performance by NR

[Mike Storey]

Of the list provided by the Signal Engineer, note my other post on the Calder Valley.

 

I have found several progress sites on the Dore Valley improvements, and apparently, the T&W Act order was only agreed by govt late in 2018 (after having been submitted in initial form in 2015). Latest estimates are for the scheme to be completed by 2022. Again, can NR seriously be held accountable for a 3 years delay by HMG??

 

http://www.fodats.net/html/hv_capacity.html

Edited January 26, 2020 by Mike Storey

[TheSignalEngineer]

33 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

The entire Calder Valley has now been re-signalled (although some delays to commissioning), with improved headways and closure of several boxes (including Hebden).

Must take a ride through to see what it looks like now.

[4630]

4 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Bradford Interchange - Rochdale was resignalled recently which removed the intermediate signal boxes, and I believe the signal spacing was altered to improve performance and increase capacity.  As a passenger on it fairly frequently, it certainly seems that 'fasts' (York-Blackpool) are no longer checked for catching up with the preceding stopper at the IB signals in the Luddendenfoot area (between Sowerby Bridge & Mytholmroyd) which used to be quite regular.

 

Also, (I think not covered by your list) the layout at Bradford Interchange was remodelled (again) as part of the resignalling to reduce conflicts.

 

Otherwise, also from a 'no longer involved' perspective, as far as I know I agree with what you've said above.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

The entire Calder Valley has now been re-signalled (although some delays to commissioning), with improved headways and closure of several boxes (including Hebden).

 

In addition to the above, there has been a reasonable amount of track fettling carried out to my knowledge over the past 2-3 years along the Calder Valley.

 

Several long stretches between Hebden Bridge and Mytholmyroyd and between the junctions at Greetland and Bradley Wood have been replaced and reballasted.

 

The fact that the Calder Valley acts as the main diversionary route for TransPennine services via Huddersfield, as it is today as it happens due to engineering work , probably has some bearing on its maintenance.  That plus the route takes some pounding from the regular Liverpool-Drax biomass workings.

 

 

[62613]

23 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Network Rail don't seem to want to tell anyone what they have and haven't achieved in CP5 across the northwest and transpennine routes.

I'm out of the loop now except as an occasional passenger, even with a Silvertop I avoid train travel in the Manchester area wherever possible. Yes it is that bad.

 

Going through the list there are a few obvious things that I have seen but without tracking through the Notices it's a bit difficult to be specific.

This is my personal perception of achievements 

 

• Ordsall Chord - Done
• Manchester Victoria - Whatever done doesn't seem to have improved things much, Operation seems as chaotic as ever. Ordsall Chord connections around Deal Street / Salford Central may have enhanced flexibility a bit
• Huyton and Roby Capacity Stage 1 - Done
• Preston JTI (Journey Time Improvements) - Some infrastructure improvements between Salford Crescent and Euxton Junction done but how much it has improved other than performance of electric trains ???
• Chinley Capacity - Provision of overtaking and turnback facilities nothing done
• Dore & Grindleford Capacity - Doubling of the single line between Dore West & Dore Station Jct and provision of freight recessing facilities nothing done
• Marple JTI - Infrastructure improvements between New Mills and Ashburys not seen anything done except abolition of a couple of Block Posts without providing any more signals
• Hope Valley JTI - Infrastructure improvements between Dore and New Mills South Junction nothing done
• Calder Valley JTI - Infrastructure improvements between Manchester and Bradford ?????
• Manchester Oxford Road station - Remodelling to provide capacity to accommodate longer, more frequent trains nothing done
• Manchester Piccadilly station - Provision of two additional through platforms (15 & 16) nothing done
• Manchester Airport 4th platform - Done
• Manchester Victoria Capacity - Layout alterations to provide capacity and flexibility Don't think anyting has changed except at junction to Ordsall Chord
• Core Manchester Performance - Castlefield corridor and Ordsall Lane junction capacity and performance improvements Can't see that anything has changed. 
• Chat Moss Capacity  - Headway improvements to provide additional capacity between Liverpool to Manchester via Newton-le-Willows ?????
• Huyton & Roby Capacity Stage 2 - Done Now four tracks through Huyton and Roby stations to junction of Chat Moss and St Helens lines
• Chester JTI - Infrastructure improvements between Earlestown and Chester to provide journey time savings. ?????
• Rochdale Capacity - Turnback done but no overtaking facility yet.
• North West Electrification Programme - Mostly done
• Trans Pennine Electrification - Nothing much has happened east of Manchester
• Manchester Rail Operating Centre -  ???? Will it ever get finished, considering that 29 years ago I was designated Signalling Project Engineer for the even numbered stages of the proposed Manchester South IECC (located at Ashburys strangely enough). The last of 10 stages IIRC was the Hope Valley resignalling and improvement works due for completion in 2008.
• Leeds to Liverpool JTI - ????? My recent trip Manchester to York started late going and got later. Coming back right time from York, 5 late from Leeds, 20 late at Piccadilly.
• DfT Rolling Stock strategy - 

Anyone in the know able to expand on any of this please?

I would say that on the railway side nothing at all has happened east of Victoria. Several overbridges were raised through Ashton-under-Lyne; one road underbridge just on the Manchester side of Ashton Station has been rebuilt and the tracks realigned to allow higher speeds; the line around Ashton Moss North Junction has been resignalled and that box abolished. That's about it since 2014.

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

That about matches my impression. Only major work in recent times was Stalybridge remodelling.

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 26/01/2020 at 13:21, Mike Storey said:

Again, can NR seriously be held accountable for a 3 years delay by HMG??

My original post put the blame on the former Transport Secretary rather than NR. We seem to forget that however much the Tory politicos like to tell us differently that NR is a nationalised industry and they are ultimately responsible for its performance.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

My original post put the blame on the former Transport Secretary rather than NR. We seem to forget that however much the Tory politicos like to tell us differently that NR is a nationalised industry and they are ultimately responsible for its performance.

 

But its the senior employees / managers who agree to do it, create the plans and schedules then (should ensure) the work is carried out. Whilst its the politicians who have the vision its the senior management who have to firstly agree/buy in to that vision, then tasked with the job of turning it into reality, by creating a plan of action and finally ensure the plan is carried out. Sadly when things go pear shaped far too few are held to account. 

 

One simple example recently, a new train lost power, an engineer had to be sent out to restart it !!!! 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 26/01/2020 at 13:21, Mike Storey said:

Of the list provided by the Signal Engineer, note my other post on the Calder Valley.

 

I have found several progress sites on the Dore Valley improvements, and apparently, the T&W Act order was only agreed by govt late in 2018 (after having been submitted in initial form in 2015). Latest estimates are for the scheme to be completed by 2022. Again, can NR seriously be held accountable for a 3 years delay by HMG??

 

http://www.fodats.net/html/hv_capacity.html

Extracts from article in the Sheffiled Star in September 2019:-

• A Network Rail spokesman said: “We are reviewing the original plans for the Hope Valley line and expect to put the contract out to tender in the next few weeks.
• “The chosen contractor, once approved by the Department for Transport, should be announced by autumn 2020. Construction is expected to start in 2022 and complete by 2023.”
• Network Rail added that the scheme was being reviewed to ensure it ‘meets current railway standards’ before the contract can go out to tender.

 

 

[31A]

On 26/01/2020 at 13:21, Mike Storey said:

Of the list provided by the Signal Engineer, note my other post on the Calder Valley.

 

I have found several progress sites on the Dore Valley improvements, and apparently, the T&W Act order was only agreed by govt late in 2018 (after having been submitted in initial form in 2015). Latest estimates are for the scheme to be completed by 2022. Again, can NR seriously be held accountable for a 3 years delay by HMG??

 

http://www.fodats.net/html/hv_capacity.html

 

Yet as a case in point to the subject of this topic, before I retired it seemed to be accepted that an hourly Sheffield-Manchester stopping service via the Hope Valley wasn't possible until said enhancements had been carried out.  It had been irregular / approximately two hourly, said to be due to the need to allow paths for freights from the quarries, but last May an hourly stopping service WAS introduced despite none of the said enhancements having been carried out.

Edited January 28, 2020 by 31A
To correct a typo!

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Extracts from article in the Sheffiled Star in September 2019:-

• A Network Rail spokesman said: “We are reviewing the original plans for the Hope Valley line and expect to put the contract out to tender in the next few weeks.
• “The chosen contractor, once approved by the Department for Transport, should be announced by autumn 2020. Construction is expected to start in 2022 and complete by 2023.”
• Network Rail added that the scheme was being reviewed to ensure it ‘meets current railway standards’ before the contract can go out to tender.

 

 

 

Thanks, but that just typifies what NR are up against. Since the original submission in 2015, Group Standards may well have changed, and their application applies to when construction starts, not when the T&W Order was applied for.

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

But its the senior employees / managers who agree to do it, create the plans and schedules then (should ensure) the work is carried out. Whilst its the politicians who have the vision its the senior management who have to firstly agree/buy in to that vision, then tasked with the job of turning it into reality, by creating a plan of action and finally ensure the plan is carried out. Sadly when things go pear shaped far too few are held to account.

 

There are many examples, usually from the private sector, where a project when being planned has the people responsible for implementing it giving one answer to the question of a schedule only to have the sales department and upper management totally ignore said advice and promise something else entirely - whether it be a much larger project or a much quicker schedule.

 

NR will be facing the same thing - they can create all the plans and schedules they want by that doesn't mean the politicians or DfT will pay any attention to it when they make campaign promises or create franchise bidding requirements.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Just as an aside to this, c1991 BR was in a bit of a mess with projects. Different factions within the sectorised organisation were trying to show their muscle and often proposing confliction or overlapping projects. We did a review of all unstarted projects across the whole system in terms of cost, resource requirement and timescale from development to completion.  Some were tied in with essential renewals, others were combined and some rejected as just plain dumb. The code name for the review team was Crystal Ball, you can  imaging a few of the nicknames that soon became attached.

 

All projects seen as realistic were plotted on a chart which was tied in with both BR and Industry resource levels, and the level of investment we predicted would actually materialise.

 

The Manchester IECC scheme I mentioned earlier was largely renewals driven, together with some rationalisation. Hope Valley was considered for 90mph running with 3-aspect signalling with an implementation phase of 2006-08.

 

3 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Yet as a case in point to the subject of this topic, before I retired it seemed to be accepted that an hourly Sheffield-Manchester stopping service via the Hope Valley wasn't possible until said enhancements had been carried out.  It had been irregular / approximately two hourly, said to be due to the need to allow paths for freights from the quarries, but last May an hourly stopping service WAS introduced despite none of the said enhancements having been carried out.

 

The main things needed on the line are the alterations at Dore and upgrading the signalling to provide more shorter sections than the present Absolute Block and IB signals. I am never sure of the value of Goods Loops unless they have an entry connection from the main line at or near to 60mph and enough length to brake to stop at the exit signal. When we did Saltley, Derby and Trent MAS in 1969/70 period a lot of loops and refuge sidings disappeared. Freight train mileage run per engine hour improved by about 40%. 

[hayfield]

The Northern Rail fiasco to an outsider seems nothing to do with what a minister is prommissing

 

Network Rail is tasked with supplying an infrastructure which the rail operator can use

The companies which build and supply the trains have contracts to complete within specified times

The operator has an obligation to transport its customers according to its timetable

 

The problem as the outsider can see is down to all 3 companies failing to achieve their own parts of said operation. 

With private companies when the bosses fail they loose their jobs, in the past it seems civil servants just get moved to other jobs. This issue has nothing to do with electioneering, 3 (or more) companies/organizations have failed to perform.   

[31A]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

The main things needed on the line are the alterations at Dore and upgrading the signalling to provide more shorter sections than the present Absolute Block and IB signals. I am never sure of the value of Goods Loops unless they have an entry connection from the main line at or near to 60mph and enough length to brake to stop at the exit signal. When we did Saltley, Derby and Trent MAS in 1969/70 period a lot of loops and refuge sidings disappeared. Freight train mileage run per engine hour improved by about 40%. 

 

Yes, redoubling Dore junction was one of the most important enhancements, but another problem in the Sheffield area is that there is nowhere to recess freights approaching from the Hope Valley line and needing to pass through Sheffield station, before they arrive at Sheffield.  So one thing that was talked about was a Down Loop in the Heeley area (between Dore and Sheffield) to provide a regulating point - I think the formation had previously been four roads between Dore and Sheffield so it ought to be wide enough.  I'm not sure whether this is what is meant by "Dore & Grindleford Capacity - Doubling of the single line between Dore West & Dore Station Jct and provision of freight recessing facilities" in the list you quoted earlier.

[mdvle]

3 hours ago, hayfield said:

Network Rail is tasked with supplying an infrastructure which the rail operator can use

The companies which build and supply the trains have contracts to complete within specified times

The operator has an obligation to transport its customers according to its timetable

 

The problem as the outsider can see is down to all 3 companies failing to achieve their own parts of said operation. 

With private companies when the bosses fail they loose their jobs, in the past it seems civil servants just get moved to other jobs. This issue has nothing to do with electioneering, 3 (or more) companies/organizations have failed to perform.   

 

I admire your belief in the perfection of the private system, but the reality on the ground is entirely different.

 

"The companies the build and supply the trains" are all private companies, and pretty much all of them have failed to deliver to schedule.  I am not aware of any bosses losing their jobs.

 

In pretty much most of the world the companies providing mobile/cell phone services are hated - unless the government has stepped in to regulate much of the hated behaviour away.  No bosses losing jobs there either.

 

And it goes on and on.

 

This is because what you call a failure - the inability to deliver on schedule - the people who count (the shareholders) don't care about.  The only metric that generally speaking matters is the ability to make a profit year after year.

[96701]

11 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

But its the senior employees / managers who agree to do it, create the plans and schedules then (should ensure) the work is carried out. Whilst its the politicians who have the vision its the senior management who have to firstly agree/buy in to that vision, then tasked with the job of turning it into reality, by creating a plan of action and finally ensure the plan is carried out. Sadly when things go pear shaped far too few are held to account. 

 

One simple example recently, a new train lost power, an engineer had to be sent out to restart it !!!! 

NR don't do trains, so that isn't NR poor performance.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, 96701 said:

NR don't do trains, so that isn't NR poor performance.

Performance in the railway industry is a blame game. In the early days of privatisation I was bid manager for the signalling part of a consortium bidding for maintenance contracts. The contract specified penalties for delays to trains due to infrastructure issues, responsibility for which now lies back with NR. I calculated how much the penalty would be based on the performance of the incumbent contractor and worked out that if we could argue that 10% were not our fault then I could pay four delay clerks to actually do the work of fighting claims and still make a handsome profit on it.

 

If I were arguing on the point of delays to rolling stock procurement my first impression would be that it is largely caused by meddling by the DfT in trying to specify things which they know little about and then changing their minds half way through.

[96701]

9 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Performance in the railway industry is a blame game. In the early days of privatisation I was bid manager for the signalling part of a consortium bidding for maintenance contracts. The contract specified penalties for delays to trains due to infrastructure issues, responsibility for which now lies back with NR. I calculated how much the penalty would be based on the performance of the incumbent contractor and worked out that if we could argue that 10% were not our fault then I could pay four delay clerks to actually do the work of fighting claims and still make a handsome profit on it.

 

If I were arguing on the point of delays to rolling stock procurement my first impression would be that it is largely caused by meddling by the DfT in trying to specify things which they know little about and then changing their minds half way through.

Yup, and I was only referring to this bit:

One simple example recently, a new train lost power, an engineer had to be sent out to restart it !!!! 

 

There is far too much blame game because there are far to many companies involved in running the railway when it is blatantly obvious to anybody who works within the industry that no one person can possibly know how it all works.

 

[royaloak]

6 hours ago, hayfield said:

The Northern Rail fiasco to an outsider seems nothing to do with what a minister is prommissing

 

Network Rail is tasked with supplying an infrastructure which the rail operator can use

The companies which build and supply the trains have contracts to complete within specified times

The operator has an obligation to transport its customers according to its timetable

 

The problem as the outsider can see is down to all 3 companies failing to achieve their own parts of said operation. 

With private companies when the bosses fail they loose their jobs, in the past it seems civil servants just get moved to other jobs. This issue has nothing to do with electioneering, 3 (or more) companies/organizations have failed to perform.   

Yes they are, but when the DaFT accept bid which require enhancements Network Rail know absolutely nothing about who is at fault?

 

The problem is nobody is willing to say where the problem lies (DaFT) because you dont bite the hand that feeds you!

[hayfield]

13 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I admire your belief in the perfection of the private system, but the reality on the ground is entirely different.

 

"The companies the build and supply the trains" are all private companies, and pretty much all of them have failed to deliver to schedule.  I am not aware of any bosses losing their jobs.

 

In pretty much most of the world the companies providing mobile/cell phone services are hated - unless the government has stepped in to regulate much of the hated behaviour away.  No bosses losing jobs there either.

 

And it goes on and on.

 

This is because what you call a failure - the inability to deliver on schedule - the people who count (the shareholders) don't care about.  The only metric that generally speaking matters is the ability to make a profit year after year.

 

Look at the railways when they were nationalised, run into the ground as the country could not afford to invest into them. No system is perfect just some better than others. Look at those countries where the state owns/controls everything, all places none of us would like to be. I think the railways as they are is a mess, they need streamlining, not public ownership

 

I think you will find that companies have lost their franchises also some have been excluded from bidding, for companies to exist they have to make profits, unions can be of great benefit to both employees and passengers, however they can also affect performance by failing to move with the times and technical advances. In most cases our railways are in a good position with modern stock and infrastructure playing its part

[hayfield]

18 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

I admire your belief in the perfection of the private system, but the reality on the ground is entirely different.

 

In pretty much most of the world the companies providing mobile/cell phone services are hated - unless the government has stepped in to regulate much of the hated behaviour away.  No bosses losing jobs there either.

 

 

 

Just seen this on a BBC website

 

 Northern’s parent company Arriva, which is owned by Germany’s state railway. Deutsche Bahn AG is a German railway company. It is a private joint-stock company, with the Federal Republic of Germany being its single shareholder. Well  Deutsche Bahn have been well aware of Northern Rails issues why have they not bought their own expertise into play ? So much for nationalised railways !!! 

 

It seems our nationalised railways which have been privatised are owned by a private company who is owned by a nationalised railway. Which in the end has made a right **** up in running it.

 

You could not have made it up as a comedy and be believed.

 

As for why you introduced phone companies who have on the whole brought cheap calls to everyone. I use Vodafone, if I hated them I would change provider, likewise my wife uses EE and is more than happy. Look at BT now and the awful expensive service we were forced to use prior to privatisation, worlds apart. I am now a valued customer (had an issue Sunday night, repaired Monday morning)  But this is nothing to do with Railways and what appears a failing private railway company who is owned by a nationalised railway company 

Edited January 29, 2020 by hayfield

[Mike Storey]

Officially announced today: "re-nationalisation" of Northern Rail: 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/29/northern-rail-franchise-to-be-renationalised

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, hayfield said:

Northern’s parent company Arriva, which is owned by Germany’s state railway. Deutsche Bahn AG is a German railway company. It is a private joint-stock company, with the Federal Republic of Germany being its single shareholder. Well  Deutsche Bahn have been well aware of Northern Rails issues why have they not bought their own expertise into play ? So much for nationalised railways !!! 

 

This isn't exactly a great revelation, the company structure of Arriva/DB is fairly open knowledge.

 

As for the specifics of Northern, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether Northern is operated by a government company or a more traditional private company.  Northern, as a subsidized franchise, operates exactly what the UK DfT specificies.

 

Expertise running trains cannot overcome the limitations placed in the franchise terms and the funding available.

 

 

 

[hayfield]

6 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

This isn't exactly a great revelation, the company structure of Arriva/DB is fairly open knowledge.

 

As for the specifics of Northern, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether Northern is operated by a government company or a more traditional private company.  Northern, as a subsidized franchise, operates exactly what the UK DfT specificies.

 

Expertise running trains cannot overcome the limitations placed in the franchise terms and the funding available.

 

 

 

 

We are in a free market, nobody held a gun to Northern Rail's head, Arriva is a well known company in the transport business who should have known what it was buying, likewise DB in buying Arriva. don't blame DfT for getting the best deal it could.

 

To many of us not in the industry Northern Rail's ownership was not known, to me and I guess a great many others it is a surprise

 

If I go into a shop and buy an item, I cannot go back and say in hindsight I cannot afford it. can I have my money back !!

 

Northern agreed to the terms of the franchise offered. Or offered too much for the franchise in the bidding cycle.

[Zomboid]

Just now, hayfield said:

If I go into a shop and buy an item, I cannot go back and say in hindsight I cannot afford it. can I have my money back

If you haven't used it and kept the receipt, then yes you can...

 

Anyway, ownership isn't the issue really, it's about having competent people in position with the authority and budget to deal with the issues that they face. That could happen in the public sector or the private sector.