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ColHut

point indicators for isolated sidings

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G'day all,

 

I have an isolated siding on a single line controlled by a ground frame ( unlocked by the single line token), and with the usual FPL and point lever working the siding point and a trap point.

 

Anyway, I was wondering what would be the likelihood of a co-acting rotating point indicator being there and surviving into the 30s?. One is not necessary at all, but it would look quite good. Probably LNER or GWR.  

 

Regards

 

 

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I would agree with Grovenor. Mind you, it appears that a B&ER style one survived at Creech Junction for many years.

 

In fact, I would doubt if an indicator would have been provided in the beginning anyway, though having said that the L&SWR seemed to have been quite keen on providing worked shunt signals for both in and out movements. I always thought that rather pointless (no pun intended!), given that the in-going signal would be ignored anyway by every passing train (ie 99% of the branch services) and as there would be a guard or shunter present to work the GF when shunting then hand-signals ought to have sufficed.

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Agreed.. It makes little  sense, other than perhaps where there may be sighting or communication issues between guard/shunter at the  groundframe and the  driver.

 

a bit whimsical perhaps.

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Why not?

 

Rowden Mill had point discs in a picture dated 1937-40, but they had gone by 1958 (after closure) track was still there.

 

Barbers Bridge had them in the 1950s.

 

I hold the three pictures, but of course, cannot put them on here.

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Strictly speaking IMHO a non-independent point disc/point indicator merely indicates that the point is (hopefully fully) in one position or the other. It is not a signal to the driver to move, for which he needs to await a hand-signal from the guard or shunter. If one can assume that the guard/shunter has checked that the point is in the required position before giving that hand-signal, what practical purpose does the disc/indicator serve?

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2 hours ago, Tim V said:

Why not?

 

Rowden Mill had point discs in a picture dated 1937-40, but they had gone by 1958 (after closure) track was still there.

 

Barbers Bridge had them in the 1950s.

 

I hold the three pictures, but of course, cannot put them on here.

Were these Ground Frame operated?

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Does it need a signal, - not at all, 

Does it need a point indicator - well given where the GF is and where the engine is, it would make it easier for night time shunts, and provide confirmation that the points are over.

 

Really just looking to add a little colour...

 

Be interested to see your references Tim.

 

regards all, appreciate the imput.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ColHut said:

Does it need a signal, - not at all, 

Does it need a point indicator - well given where the GF is and where the engine is, it would make it easier for night time shunts, and provide confirmation that the points are over.

 

Really just looking to add a little colour...

 

Be interested to see your references Tim.

 

regards all, appreciate the imput.

 

 

Ideally the GF should be pretty close to the point end in the siding so that the Shunter can clearly see/easily check that the points are properly closed before handsignalling a movement over them.  As far as the end in the running line is concerned it should also be visually checked before handsignalling a movement over it (in many cases FPLs on such ground frame worked points only bolted when set for the running line hence the need to check when making a facing movement towards the siding.

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13 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Were these Ground Frame operated?

No, they work with the switches. They are point indicators, not ground signals.

 

Here is a picture of one in the old Swindon museum.

 

 

Swindon Museum Rolleiflex 18 March 1977 82-5.jpg

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And just found another location, Brislington had them in 1949.

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In many cases point indicators generally survived for as long as the points they were associated with survived - for the very simple reason that it required an extra lever to be commissioned in the frame and a locking alteration in order to replace one with an independent ground disc.  The one on the bay line release crossover at our local branch junction (on the GWML) survived until 1961 simply because the release crossover lasted that long notwithstanding dieselisation of the internal branch services in the late 1950s and the indicator only went when the crossover was removed in that year.

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I see Rowden Mill has a groundframe hut now.. Certainly in the linked image the points and rodding go somewhere.  Was it a block post in its day?

 

Otherwise I cannot see the point.  I take StationMaster's point that regardless of the indicator, the train would have been handsignalled (or with a lamp at night?) over the points to the loop or siding.

 

It does beg the question, outside of block posts in the early years where they would have assisted the signalmen in knowing which way his points were set, why were they thought necessary?

 

regards

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Quote

 

 

Quote

 

16 hours ago, Grovenor said:

Were these Ground Frame operated?

 

No, they work with the switches. They are point indicators, not ground signals.

 

Indeed they work with the switches but were the switches and associated indicators worked by Ground frame or Signal box?

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All examples I quoted were ground frames.

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There is a picture of a rotating point indicator for a siding in one of the Severn & Wye books.

 

Gordon A

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5 hours ago, Tim V said:

All examples I quoted were ground frames.

Thanks Tim, more common then than I would have expected.

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May be of interest, a Saxby & Farmer point indicator at Hemsworth Sidings, Hull & Barnsley Rly.

54 HEMSWORTH SIDINGS.JPG

C_No22_HEMSWORTH_SIDINGS_SB_.jpg

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The dependent disc (points indicator) remained at crowcombe until the box was closed in 1966. Bearing in mind the comments above, was this some sort of record?

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2 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

May be of interest, a Saxby & Farmer point indicator at Hemsworth Sidings, Hull & Barnsley Rly.

54 HEMSWORTH SIDINGS.JPG

C_No22_HEMSWORTH_SIDINGS_SB_.jpg

 

I think I count 5 point indicators there, presumably quite an old diagram?

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10 hours ago, ikcdab said:

The dependent disc (points indicator) remained at crowcombe until the box was closed in 1966. Bearing in mind the comments above, was this some sort of record?

I'd forgotten about that one, just a little before my time there :-)

 

Are there any photos of it ??? - must check your book again, but don't recall seeing any.

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9 hours ago, ColHut said:

 

I think I count 5 point indicators there, presumably quite an old diagram?

Undated, but presumably dates from the opening of the line in 1885, and will reflect the practice of c1884.

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